Re: What happens when you mess with Brits

**WhiskeySix** · 02-16-2006, 02:59 PM

I wonder how WWII would have been different if it had the media coverage we have now.....

**SmokingTarpan** · 02-16-2006, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by DudeMan

not sure i agree with this, these soldiers are people, i bet on any given day you break some laws, difference being your life style, means the laws you break ( speeding, littering etc) are minor, these soldiers had the ability and method to kill these guys and didnt

And every time I break those laws, it's of my choosing; I don't break them because stress pushes me over the edge. Remember, these soldiers also had the choice to remain calm and handle the situation with integrity, and they didn't.

Definitely agree with Cing, soldiers should not be acting as police. By the way, how close are MP's to actual police, at least in terms of SOP? Would they be better suited to this instead of regular soldiers?

Mjr Doodie · 02-16-2006, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

I wonder how WWII would have been different if it had the media coverage we have now.....

Not much different in my opinion. We where a more unified nation back then but some people wouldn't have the stomach for the coverage.

Through rock at me and I'll take you out back and teach you a lesson. Bet they don't do it again.

I'm sure those "victims" are not in jail.

**WhiskeySix** · 02-16-2006, 03:29 PM

Man... those guys over there are in such a tough position!! This war has become as much a PR campaign as it is a military operation.

**Gixxer_USMC** · 02-16-2006, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

And every time I break those laws, it's of my choosing; I don't break them because stress pushes me over the edge. Remember, these soldiers also had the choice to remain calm and handle the situation with integrity, and they didn't.

Definitely agree with Cing, soldiers should not be acting as police. By the way, how close are MP's to actual police, at least in terms of SOP? Would they be better suited to this instead of regular soldiers?

Look, I am not saying ... " Yes, everytime someone throws rocks at military personel they should get beat ... no ....

Did you ever have a bullet go passed your head for real ?
How about a Motar round going off even 75 meters from you ?
Or try having a few dozen rocks thrown at you while they shout hateful remarks at you ...

Heck, after experiencing something like gunfire .... whenever someone even pops their bubblegum you want to dump yourself .....

When this happens you get a little bit nervous .... I can't begijn to explain the amout of STRESS, FRUSTRATION, DEPRESSION that goes on in these situations ....

This type of stuff puts " A little more stress " on you than A trafic Violation ...

Yes, they chose to join the Military ..... does that mean they shouldn't have reactions ?

Another thing they don't tell you in the military is a thing called " STOP LOSS "
Any idea ?

It's when the Military says " You don't get out of the Military Until we say so now that there is a Conflict "

How would you feel if this happend to you as you were about to "SEPRATE" from the military ?

I am not saying that is what played a part in this event but, when you say " Well, nobody forced them to join the Military "
The Military doesn't tell you everything as well ......

Look, everyone has there opinion and I respect that, I am just trying to explain the tension, stress and a wide array of other psychological effects that happen to you when you are in a combat situation .....

This is for real .... it is not a Simulation game ..... you get shot .. you die ..... you don't see your family anymore ......

I just ask you try to see it from the other side .....

**SmokingTarpan** · 02-16-2006, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gixxer_USMC

Look, everyone has there opinion and I respect that, I am just trying to explain the tension, stress and a wide array of other psychological effects that happen to you when you are in a combat situation .....

No, I understand that it's not an easy job. Despite my attitude toward our current conflict, I have the utmost respect for our people in uniform. They're out there dealing with crap that hopefully I will never have to.

I just have issues with people using the stress excuse. No, the military doesn't tell you everything. But really, unless you've been asleep for the past couple decades, you should be aware of the sly things that happen. Even if you weren't, really, if you sign your name on the dotted line agreeing to become a soldier and expect nothing bad to ever happen to you, you're a complete idiot. The two primary functions (in my belief, the only functions) of a soldier are to kill or be killed; ain't nothin' pleasant about either one.

If we say "it's stress, cut them some slack", how far do we extend the slack? This time it's beating some prisoners. How about rape? Burning down a mosque? Opening up on a market of civilians with a SAW?

I understand where you're coming from, but gotta disagree for the most part. In the end, we all have control over our own actions. We can choose to let things get to us and go postal, or we can remain rational. We're not animals. Regardless of how we choose to act, we also have to be held responsible for our actions, which I think ultimately these soldiers will be. Look at it from another angle, too: These soldiers have just reinforced the beliefs of the insurgents. That isn't good.

**WhiskeySix** · 02-16-2006, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

In the end, we all have control over our own actions. We can choose to let things get to us and go postal, or we can remain rational.

I think this is where your points are diverging... when you're at the ATM and it eats your card, you can choose your reaction... you can smash the screen or you can be rational and call the bank. On the other hand, when someone is trying kill you (keep you from EVER seeing your family again), your body squirts out a slightly different chemical cocktail for your brain to deal with...

We're not animals.

I know what you're saying, but when it comes down to it... when it's "fight or flight"?? If you've ever been in a real fight with another human, you know damn well we are definitely still very much mammals - growling, teeth, claws, and all....

Regardless of how we choose to act, we also have to be held responsible for our actions, which I think ultimately these soldiers will be. Look at it from another angle, too: These soldiers have just reinforced the beliefs of the insurgents. That isn't good.

I agree completely with this. My above thoughts aren't offering an excuse - just an explanation. Basically, for me it just comes down to the fact that I have way to much empathy and respect for the soldiers over there to form any opinions that include "They should have..." or "I would have..."

just my 2 cents...

**DudeMan** · 02-16-2006, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

And every time I break those laws, it's of my choosing; I don't break them because stress pushes me over the edge. Remember, these soldiers also had the choice to remain calm and handle the situation with integrity, and they didn't.

Definitely agree with Cing, soldiers should not be acting as police. By the way, how close are MP's to actual police, at least in terms of SOP? Would they be better suited to this instead of regular soldiers?

oh whatever im not going to sit here and argue with archair quater backs, who think they have an inclin of what its like in that situation.

ive said my peice, im not going to jump on these guys for roughing someone up, they were all walking when they were finished they couldnt have done that much harm, i dont condone it, but im not going to follow the media crze of demonising soldiers.

**JoshZeitlin** · 02-16-2006, 07:11 PM

Now that whiskey cleared up that one little disagreement (+++++rep for WhiskeySix), I have another question:

Dudeman... your from England. I've seen you chaps do worse than those soldiers over a soccer game.

The question: When these soccer brawls break out, do the participants get prosecuted?

**Obi** · 02-16-2006, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by JoshZeitlin

Now that whiskey cleared up that one little disagreement (+++++rep for WhiskeySix), I have another question:

Dudeman... your from England. I've seen you chaps do worse than those soldiers over a soccer game.

The question: When these soccer brawls break out, do the participants get prosecuted?

They attempt to prosecute them. The fans get banned from attending football games. At the last world cup loads of football 'hooligans' were banned from traveling abroad to attend matches.

**Delta_Swift** · 02-16-2006, 08:13 PM

Here's the way I look at it:

I expect that some men will lose control while in combat. The stress on the mind and body is overwhelming and some men will not always be able to maintain their composure. Some of these men may be legitimately wonderful people that just made a mistake. However, that does not and cannot matter when it comes to being prosecuted. If you commit a crime you can and should be prosecuted. It's up to sentencing to determine the degree of punishment based on the circumstances and the individual. But no matter what, if you do wrong...you must be held accountable.

Most laws exist to protect the innocent. In order to insure their protection and no manipulation of the system, prosecution casts a blind eye. From a moral perspective some men might make a mistake and could be trusted to never commit the mistake again, and could be let go. However, some men might take advantage of such an opportunity, pretending to be men of moral caliber in order to get off scott free, only to commit such crimes again. In order to insure this does not happen, all men are treated equally under prosecution. No exceptions are made. If you do wrong, you will be prosecuted. When you commit a crime you are accepting, consciously or passively, the fact that you may be caught and you will be prosecuted.

So whether these British troops are fine soldiers and upstanding citizens matters not. They have done wrong and must face the repercussions.

**Tonk** · 02-17-2006, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by DudeMan

those trropps were brits, and BTW are now on trial, its been on the news... but why was that comentator american? that, i dont get, why would therre be an american videoing this, i would have expected it to be another brit, hmmmmmm

the comentator sounded like a brit to me,

also: i dont think they went overboard, i would totally justify that if someone threw rocks at me

**DudeMan** · 02-17-2006, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by 0b1one

They attempt to prosecute them. The fans get banned from attending football games. At the last world cup loads of football 'hooligans' were banned from traveling abroad to attend matches.

yeah the ring leaders do, it is impossible to prosecute all involved because often it is over 5 people all kicking the crap out of each other... kind of like a fight club,

**DudeMan** · 02-17-2006, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Delta_Swift

Here's the way I look at it:

I expect that some men will lose control while in combat. The stress on the mind and body is overwhelming and some men will not always be able to maintain their composure. Some of these men may be legitimately wonderful people that just made a mistake. However, that does not and cannot matter when it comes to being prosecuted. If you commit a crime you can and should be prosecuted. It's up to sentencing to determine the degree of punishment based on the circumstances and the individual. But no matter what, if you do wrong...you must be held accountable.

Most laws exist to protect the innocent. In order to insure their protection and no manipulation of the system, prosecution casts a blind eye. From a moral perspective some men might make a mistake and could be trusted to never commit the mistake again, and could be let go. However, some men might take advantage of such an opportunity, pretending to be men of moral caliber in order to get off scott free, only to commit such crimes again. In order to insure this does not happen, all men are treated equally under prosecution. No exceptions are made. If you do wrong, you will be prosecuted. When you commit a crime you are accepting, consciously or passively, the fact that you may be caught and you will be prosecuted.

So whether these British troops are fine soldiers and upstanding citizens matters not. They have done wrong and must face the repercussions.

nice story, shame it should be filled in the fiction section....

tell me what exactly happened to the commanding officers and everyone else involved at the abu gharib scandal..... or are we seriously suggesting, Lindie England masterminded all that.... because strangely the show trial that followed focused on her..... no exceptions my rear end....

thats the way its supposed to be, not the way it is imo.

**Ben** · 02-17-2006, 10:22 AM

If you have an understanding of the types of people that the coalition (and Israel) face in the middle east on an hourly basis 24/7 then you would probably agree that beating the hell outta rock throwers is a proper response.

That is their culture. their fathers and mothers beat them for far less.

You do have to sink a bit in order to root out this behavior. If you simply cuff em and bring them to the base, ask some questions and let them go, they will treat you like a fool and the next time it won't be rocks they will be throwing, it will be Pipe Bombs and molotov cocktails.

The Geneva convention only applies to the guys who are not cutting off heads. My Geneva Convention paper that I had to carry in my pocket at all times in the IDF in case i was captured would have been better used as toilete paper since the Arabs would have tortured me beyond belief, chop me up and video it and send it to my family as a Hannukah gift.

These are very bad people and for all the Geneva laws are worth, they actually only protect the bad guys form harm.

If you have ever been in the middle of a rampaging mob of stone throwers that are chanting your death and destruction, you have 2 options. You can open fire and kill the bastards or you can catch a couple and teach them a lesson, then interrogate them and then arrest the ringleaders with the information you get.

If you don't teach them a lesson physically and psychologically then they will never learn that doing what they do is bad for their health.

UNFORTUNATLEY, the coalition and Israel do abide by the Geneva convention, which limits any proper response to these hoodlum/hatemongers. So we cannot beat them like they deserve nor can we just open fire either. We do follow the rules to our detriment.