New word for the language filters - Page 4

Steeler · 02-24-2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

"is that all you've got, Chemos?"

I am I going to Hell for laughing at that?

**DudeMan** · 02-25-2006, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Dudeman, I am dissapointed by your decision to remain dialectically apathetic, but I recognize that it is your choice, and is protected by the First Amendment. You also misunderstand my post, and in my opinion, what should be the point behind this thread.

No one here is trying to tell you or anyone else what words they are allowed to speak. But rather to concur: There are some words that carry bigoted connotations, regardless of your awareness. If you are attempting to put someone down, they will pick up on it. As Steeler said, most people of a given race are more sensitive/aware of the slurs against their minority. GENERALLY, if you aren't trying to insult someone, and you happen to stumble on some words that can be misinterpreted, you're gonna be safe. The American work environment is EXTRAORDINARILY sensitive about these issues, however, and so IMO the law suit has merit. I gather, from your dialect, that you are not from the States...

erm i dont knoiw if you care to just look for a second at my name info and sig, but it is quite clear where im from....

but you are right i am not.

to be honest, if things are as bad as you say they are in the american work place. i think there is an underlying problem that has the potential to explode.... the fact is if i insult someone i will do so, however i feel will hit them hardest. and by using a word which will be taken out of context, does not really bother me. i dont fear repercussions of someone being sensative... and believe it or not, london is one of the most multicultural cities in the world, with i think over 100 languages.. or possibly thats why it is more relaxed i dont know.

dont get me wrong, i am not about to run around saying things just to be contreversial, and not caring if i have insulted someone... but i am talking with regards to a filter, it is a stupid word to ban. and also, knowing this doesnt change my attitude to using the word.

**CingularDuality** · 02-25-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

The same argument applies to children as it does to cancer patients, or any other group which cannot escape the group to which it finds itself belonging. You don't hear the football coach saying "is that all you've got, Chemos?" Sure, chemotherapy patients uncontrollably lack the physical strength typical seen in men and not women (that which Coach demands in his players). But you don't call the cancer patients "hyper-sensitive," because you've trained yourself, out of RESPECT for cancer patients, that you're not to mock them for something they can't control (weakness). Or maybe the fear that you might one day find yourself in that group creates in you restraint. This latter concern, if EVER present, is surely absent when referencing "the other gender".

I can not believe that you just compared being female or being young to being stricken with an often terminal disease...

Are your "sensibilities" getting in the way of common sense?

**Wyzcrak** · 02-25-2006, 05:39 PM

Why did you put the word sensibilities in quotes? There was nothing insensitive in my post.

Do you know what about the groups I compared? What commonality I highlighted? Read it again, if you have to.

derdmeh · 02-26-2006, 01:24 PM

From my point of view, one important aspect to consider when thinking about this kind of speech (slurs, bigoted language) is that it occurs in the context of a democracy, which means that participation at all levels of public life hinge on one's ability to be heard for what you say and not for the particular sort of person you are. From the "grass-roots" up, the very possibility of having a fully fledged public presence is that other people recognize the wisdom of your words and the excellence of your deeds. It is tragic that someone can be robbed of this recognition because of their sex, race, sexual orientation, etc.

This point does not only apply to cases of explicit injustice in which someone knows the harm they are trying to do to someone or to some group of people. There are injustices that get carried on and perpetuated by people who I'm sure have no explicit idea what they are doing. But just because people don't know what their doing doesn't mean their speech isn't destructive. Just because people laugh at some sayings or names and say "no harm there; I was just kidding" doesn't mean that the words themselves are innocent. Our basic ways of hearing other people are shaped daily by the things we say and accept into our lives, regardless of whether we are working on this intentionally or not.

So, I think an important concern here is protecting the environment of public discourse from deformation. An individual person's feeling of offense is important, but look at the way individual feelings indicate a broader harm to the context of political life in general. Among other things, being free means being heard, and this respect we still have a long way to go before there is something like "free speech" for everyone.

**CingularDuality** · 02-26-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

There was nothing insensitive in my post.

The hell there wasn't... Perhaps you should read it again.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-26-2006, 03:41 PM

I've re-read it. Educate me.

**CingularDuality** · 02-26-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

I've re-read it. Educate me.

Your argument attempts to compare someone burdened with a terminal disease to someone "burdened" with being physically weaker as a matter of course, in order to argue that it's the same thing when using those generalizations as a pejorative comment. That's insensitive to both groups of people in different ways...

aesop rock · 02-26-2006, 05:22 PM

Negative. The possible insensitivities that one could draw from Wyz' post would need to be taken WAY out of context. I mean WAY.... I don't think I can say it any better than he did, but maybe I can say it differently.

Let's continue with the football coach example, because I think it is really a good one for debate. Also, I played football for six years on school teams, so I don't have to do a lot of guessing, here.

On the football field, there are dozens of roles to be filled. All of these roles include the need/desire for strength, speed, and sheer intensity. It could be argued, and would be hard to dispute, that females (on average) are at a natural disadvantage to men in these categories, as a whole.

Now that being agreed, let's take a look at WHY the coach has selected this particular noun to place on his players, and why people choose certain words as perjoratives over others. In order to select an appropriate insult, one must first determine the target. What does the target WANT to be? If they fancy themself a tough-guy, call them a princess. If they fancy themself a princess, call them butch (and don't even get started on this one, it IS bigotry, straight up). You get the point.

As Wyzcrak said, it would be far less 'insulting/motivating' (no I don't get motivated by insults, but I guess some do) for the coach to refer to his players as barbarians. Heck, that's damn near a compliment to a football lineman. And the reason is that football players are not WELL-KNOWN for, or required to have civics, intelligence, or open-mindedness. Therefore, when you call a football player a barbarian, you haven't at all threatened their image. 'Lady' is an insult to these players because none want to be associated with the qualities of a woman that are RELEVANT to the context (football), at least not the NEGATIVE ones that are OBVIOUSLY IMPLIED. By using 'lady' as a perjorative, you are making an implied statement that the relevant qualities of a woman are undesirable in that particular situation. Accurate, but not appropriate.

In football: Civic, intelligent, and open-minded people are best left to managorial positions, which makes it absolutely fair-game for women. I would put to you that you won't hear a lot of 'LETS GO, LADIES' floating around the NY Yankees Manager Offices. You might, however, hear the occasional 'barbarian' muttered under the breath as the O. Line coach struts through, from time to time.

That same 'barbarian' insult put towards the Chess Club player might actually instigate a negative reaction. But then again, it sure depends on your intention, as it really isn't hard to pick up negative from positive. The example of barbarian is quite tame, as there are no more people alive that are commonly labeled as this (in a negative light). At least, not to my knowledge.

Chess player: Haha! You have all the intellect of a barbarian! Check-mate! (insult, and if 'barbarians' still existed, it'd be bigotry)
Chess player: Wow! You're quite the board-control barbarian, aren't ya!? (not insulting, because in this case, agression and strength are implied to be good)

It's all so obvious, I really think that anyone that doesn't agree is faking it. :P

My final point is extraordinarily tricky, and probably warrants an entirely new discussion, but it is quite to topic.

2nd-hand discrimination. If you've ever worked at a big company, you've most likely have had to watch one of their rediculous harassment videos. If not, it only takes a little bit of retrospective thought to see my point.

Have you ever been standing in line or at a party, and someone says something that, while it wasn't targetted at you, includes you in their group of insult? I have a mixed ethnicity, as most people do in the USA (if they really looked), and many many times have been mortified by bigotry that I was included in. Sometimes the person knew, most of the time they didn't know.

Now, it is commonly agreed that sexism exists, and this last part of the thread has been dedicated to proving/disproving that using 'lady' and 'woman' towards certain people could be considered bigotry. What isn't always agreed is whether or not it is considered bigotry to use these types of language towards someone who it DOESN'T BOTHER, but in a place where other people witness it.

I got busted BIG TIME earlier this year. My girlfriend has worked with developmentally disabled kids most of her life, and to her, some of these kids are like her brothers and sisters. One day I was talking about the Black Eyed Peas, and now I thought their new music and production was 'retarded' and horrible.

She instantly was horrified and explained that you never know how your audience will react to words like that, and so they should never be used as a perjorative. My response was that I had been the subject to certain types of agressive language and teasing my whole life, and that anyone that knows me would understand that I have nothing but love for my people, retarded or not. She ended up getting extremely frusterated and it wasn't until a few weeks(and several conversations) later that I finally began to see her point. The more 'harmless' bigotry is given a haven in public places, the worse off we are. Whether its racism, sexism, genderism, or classism.

There is no harmless bigotry.

Back to the original case: The black manager that sued Tyson foods probably fancies himself a professional. He, I'm sure, takes himself very seriously, and demands respect from all of his friends and piers, and expects no less from his co-workers or his superiors at work. What's the #1 insult to someone like that? Somehow degrade their position to one of inferiority. His particular selection, 'boy', happens to cross both the boundaries of general respect AND racism. I won't argue about whether or not the use of the word 'boy' as a perjorative derived from slavery, because it's not a matter of opinion. It is, however, my opinion that he knew damn well the subleties behind the word he chose, but even if he didn't, he fully intended to take the guy down a notch. Is it racism? Hard to say, without being there. Is it regressive and unprofessional? Oh, yeah. Very.

- aes0p r0ck

**CingularDuality** · 02-26-2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesop rock

Negative. The possible insensitivities that one could draw from Wyz' post would need to be taken WAY out of context. I mean WAY.... I don't think I can say it any better than he did, but maybe I can say it differently.

Your post didn't touch on the negative connotations of Wyz's post at all...

I understand your argument, I just don't agree with political correctness invading every aspect of our society.

I think it's important for people to need to grow a thicker skin sometimes...

**DudeMan** · 02-26-2006, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Your post didn't touch on the negative connotations of Wyz's post at all...

I understand your argument, I just don't agree with political correctness invading every aspect of our society.

I think it's important for people to need to grow a thicker skin sometimes...

absolutly, the more importance we give petty name calling, the worse it will become... grow up get over it and realise that the person behind the insult is a bigotted knob head, and he isnt worth getting your panties in a twist about...

aesop rock · 02-26-2006, 06:33 PM

I'm sorry CD, maybe you're right.

I think it's ironic, however, for you to critique his alleged insensitivities, which were clearly used in a fashion intended to educate, rather than insult, but then defend insulting behavoir, saying that people should grow a thicker skin.

No offense, but it just seems contradictory.

EDIT: Ps. I really shouldn't have directed my message to you at all. It would have been equally as effective as a stand-alone post. It just seemed like a good seguay.

- Dudeman, I'm over it. I've been 'over it' for a long time. I understand some people are racist, and that's reality. But if I were to take your advice with everyone, I would probably think the entire world is bigoted. I am convinced otherwise. Telling me to grow up is pretty weak.

**DudeMan** · 02-26-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesop rock

- Dudeman, I'm over it. I've been 'over it' for a long time. I understand some people are racist, and that's reality. But if I were to take your advice with everyone, I would probably think the entire world is bigoted. I am convinced otherwise. Telling me to grow up is pretty weak.

im not tlling you to grow up, i fail to see how my post quoted from cings is a personal comment to you..

i am making a statement, that people are becomming to awear of the political correctness BS, i am not saying it specifically to you, infact you didnt even enter into my head while writing the post. buyt this illustrates a point doesnt it, with no real grounds for it other than you interpreted my meaning you can take offense.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-26-2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesop rock

I think it's ironic, however, for you to critique his alleged insensitivities, which were clearly used in a fashion intended to educate, rather than insult, but then defend insulting behavoir, saying that people should grow a thicker skin.

Ironic and alleged, indeed.

Invading? Every? Emotion-stirring verb and slippery slope. Ick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

I can not believe that you just compared being female or being young to being stricken with an often terminal disease...

Are your "sensibilities" getting in the way of common sense?

I ask for details, and you simply repeat yourself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Your argument attempts to compare someone burdened with a terminal disease to someone "burdened" with being physically weaker as a matter of course, in order to argue that it's the same thing when using those generalizations as a pejorative comment. That's insensitive to both groups of people in different ways...

You didn't give details about how it's insensitive, which is what I thought I was clearly asking for to begin with. aes0p has since covered all of that nicely.

The fact I was highlighting was that each group, women and chemotherapy patients, is known as limited -- by a force beyond its control -- in the amount of physical strength it's able to bring to the table. Who here will argue that, by the "matter of course" that is evolution, women aren't, on average, weaker than the average man? Who here will argue that, by the "matter of course" that is radiation, chemotherapy patients aren't weaker than the average man? These are both well-accepted knowns, not a matter of opinion or sensitivities.

So, being limited, there's a reason why female association, and not cancer association, is used to intimidate the victim's strength you're questioning. One's accepted. One's not. Both, to give up and use your words, force third parties to "grow a thicker skin."

I say let third parties alone, and leave the "growing" to the speaker.

**Wyzcrak** · 02-26-2006, 09:59 PM

There comes a time, for some people, when that "bigotted knob head" is something to get concerned about, for reasons greater than "oh, look what bad word he said."

The "bigotted knob head" might be considering you for a promotion you've otherwise earned, or teaching sex education at your child's school, or some other important influence in the life of you and yours. Not everyone can just walk away from "bigotted knob heads," nor should folks have to.

02-25-2006, 05:39 PM	#49 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: New word for the language filters Why did you put the word sensibilities in quotes? There was nothing insensitive in my post. Do you know what about the groups I compared? What commonality I highlighted? Read it again, if you have to. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

02-26-2006, 01:24 PM	#50 (permalink)
derdmeh Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,307	Re: New word for the language filters From my point of view, one important aspect to consider when thinking about this kind of speech (slurs, bigoted language) is that it occurs in the context of a democracy, which means that participation at all levels of public life hinge on one's ability to be heard for what you say and not for the particular sort of person you are. From the "grass-roots" up, the very possibility of having a fully fledged public presence is that other people recognize the wisdom of your words and the excellence of your deeds. It is tragic that someone can be robbed of this recognition because of their sex, race, sexual orientation, etc. This point does not only apply to cases of explicit injustice in which someone knows the harm they are trying to do to someone or to some group of people. There are injustices that get carried on and perpetuated by people who I'm sure have no explicit idea what they are doing. But just because people don't know what their doing doesn't mean their speech isn't destructive. Just because people laugh at some sayings or names and say "no harm there; I was just kidding" doesn't mean that the words themselves are innocent. Our basic ways of hearing other people are shaped daily by the things we say and accept into our lives, regardless of whether we are working on this intentionally or not. So, I think an important concern here is protecting the environment of public discourse from deformation. An individual person's feeling of offense is important, but look at the way individual feelings indicate a broader harm to the context of political life in general. Among other things, being free means being heard, and this respect we still have a long way to go before there is something like "free speech" for everyone.

02-26-2006, 03:41 PM	#52 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: New word for the language filters I've re-read it. Educate me. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

02-26-2006, 05:22 PM	#54 (permalink)
aesop rock Join Date: May 2005 Location: Olympia, WA Age: 27 Posts: 321	Re: New word for the language filters Negative. The possible insensitivities that one could draw from Wyz' post would need to be taken WAY out of context. I mean WAY.... I don't think I can say it any better than he did, but maybe I can say it differently. Let's continue with the football coach example, because I think it is really a good one for debate. Also, I played football for six years on school teams, so I don't have to do a lot of guessing, here. On the football field, there are dozens of roles to be filled. All of these roles include the need/desire for strength, speed, and sheer intensity. It could be argued, and would be hard to dispute, that females (on average) are at a natural disadvantage to men in these categories, as a whole. Now that being agreed, let's take a look at WHY the coach has selected this particular noun to place on his players, and why people choose certain words as perjoratives over others. In order to select an appropriate insult, one must first determine the target. What does the target WANT to be? If they fancy themself a tough-guy, call them a princess. If they fancy themself a princess, call them butch (and don't even get started on this one, it IS bigotry, straight up). You get the point. As Wyzcrak said, it would be far less 'insulting/motivating' (no I don't get motivated by insults, but I guess some do) for the coach to refer to his players as barbarians. Heck, that's damn near a compliment to a football lineman. And the reason is that football players are not WELL-KNOWN for, or required to have civics, intelligence, or open-mindedness. Therefore, when you call a football player a barbarian, you haven't at all threatened their image. 'Lady' is an insult to these players because none want to be associated with the qualities of a woman that are RELEVANT to the context (football), at least not the NEGATIVE ones that are OBVIOUSLY IMPLIED. By using 'lady' as a perjorative, you are making an implied statement that the relevant qualities of a woman are undesirable in that particular situation. Accurate, but not appropriate. In football: Civic, intelligent, and open-minded people are best left to managorial positions, which makes it absolutely fair-game for women. I would put to you that you won't hear a lot of 'LETS GO, LADIES' floating around the NY Yankees Manager Offices. You might, however, hear the occasional 'barbarian' muttered under the breath as the O. Line coach struts through, from time to time. That same 'barbarian' insult put towards the Chess Club player might actually instigate a negative reaction. But then again, it sure depends on your intention, as it really isn't hard to pick up negative from positive. The example of barbarian is quite tame, as there are no more people alive that are commonly labeled as this (in a negative light). At least, not to my knowledge. Chess player: Haha! You have all the intellect of a barbarian! Check-mate! (insult, and if 'barbarians' still existed, it'd be bigotry) Chess player: Wow! You're quite the board-control barbarian, aren't ya!? (not insulting, because in this case, agression and strength are implied to be good) It's all so obvious, I really think that anyone that doesn't agree is faking it. :P My final point is extraordinarily tricky, and probably warrants an entirely new discussion, but it is quite to topic. 2nd-hand discrimination. If you've ever worked at a big company, you've most likely have had to watch one of their rediculous harassment videos. If not, it only takes a little bit of retrospective thought to see my point. Have you ever been standing in line or at a party, and someone says something that, while it wasn't targetted at you, includes you in their group of insult? I have a mixed ethnicity, as most people do in the USA (if they really looked), and many many times have been mortified by bigotry that I was included in. Sometimes the person knew, most of the time they didn't know. Now, it is commonly agreed that sexism exists, and this last part of the thread has been dedicated to proving/disproving that using 'lady' and 'woman' towards certain people could be considered bigotry. What isn't always agreed is whether or not it is considered bigotry to use these types of language towards someone who it DOESN'T BOTHER, but in a place where other people witness it. I got busted BIG TIME earlier this year. My girlfriend has worked with developmentally disabled kids most of her life, and to her, some of these kids are like her brothers and sisters. One day I was talking about the Black Eyed Peas, and now I thought their new music and production was 'retarded' and horrible. She instantly was horrified and explained that you never know how your audience will react to words like that, and so they should never be used as a perjorative. My response was that I had been the subject to certain types of agressive language and teasing my whole life, and that anyone that knows me would understand that I have nothing but love for my people, retarded or not. She ended up getting extremely frusterated and it wasn't until a few weeks(and several conversations) later that I finally began to see her point. The more 'harmless' bigotry is given a haven in public places, the worse off we are. Whether its racism, sexism, genderism, or classism. There is no harmless bigotry. Back to the original case: The black manager that sued Tyson foods probably fancies himself a professional. He, I'm sure, takes himself very seriously, and demands respect from all of his friends and piers, and expects no less from his co-workers or his superiors at work. What's the #1 insult to someone like that? Somehow degrade their position to one of inferiority. His particular selection, 'boy', happens to cross both the boundaries of general respect AND racism. I won't argue about whether or not the use of the word 'boy' as a perjorative derived from slavery, because it's not a matter of opinion. It is, however, my opinion that he knew damn well the subleties behind the word he chose, but even if he didn't, he fully intended to take the guy down a notch. Is it racism? Hard to say, without being there. Is it regressive and unprofessional? Oh, yeah. Very. - aes0p r0ck __________________ "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock (http://www.mushrecords.com/release.php?REAID=38) "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God' or 'Good God.. morning!" -Blackalicious It is my firm belief that, until we humans stop using human nature as an excuse for our actions, we will never realize our true nature. Last edited by aesop rock; 02-26-2006 at 06:17 PM.

02-26-2006, 06:33 PM	#57 (permalink)
aesop rock Join Date: May 2005 Location: Olympia, WA Age: 27 Posts: 321	Re: New word for the language filters I'm sorry CD, maybe you're right. I think it's ironic, however, for you to critique his alleged insensitivities, which were clearly used in a fashion intended to educate, rather than insult, but then defend insulting behavoir, saying that people should grow a thicker skin. No offense, but it just seems contradictory. EDIT: Ps. I really shouldn't have directed my message to you at all. It would have been equally as effective as a stand-alone post. It just seemed like a good seguay. - Dudeman, I'm over it. I've been 'over it' for a long time. I understand some people are racist, and that's reality. But if I were to take your advice with everyone, I would probably think the entire world is bigoted. I am convinced otherwise. Telling me to grow up is pretty weak. __________________ "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock (http://www.mushrecords.com/release.php?REAID=38) "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God' or 'Good God.. morning!" -Blackalicious It is my firm belief that, until we humans stop using human nature as an excuse for our actions, we will never realize our true nature.

02-26-2006, 09:59 PM	#60 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: New word for the language filters There comes a time, for some people, when that "bigotted knob head" is something to get concerned about, for reasons greater than "oh, look what bad word he said." The "bigotted knob head" might be considering you for a promotion you've otherwise earned, or teaching sex education at your child's school, or some other important influence in the life of you and yours. Not everyone can just walk away from "bigotted knob heads," nor should folks have to. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

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