gas prices ? - Page 8

**DudeMan** · 06-09-2004, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostintheShell

Hydrogen is a very powerful gas when combusted. I don't have any numbers but I would say more powerful than propane from my chemistry lessons about electrolysis in school way back. I think you could be thinking of when it is used in a fuel cell for electrical conversion without combustion like here: http://www.ballard.com

There has been a lot of private commercial testing of hydrogen as an alternative fuel for vehicles, including a lot of money invested in Canada at Ballard Power by GM and in Japan Toyota has huge investments in going this route in the very near future. I'm sure there's a lot more examples but these are just two automotive applications of the technology.

In any case its just a very convenient storage medium. The real message is to get everyone thinking about perfectly clean renewables like solar, hydro-electric, geo-thermal, wind, tidal...and away from pollution. We may need some alternatives in-between "perfectly polluting" and "perfectly clean" to eventually get there though I'm sure you are right in that regard.

It's really an amazing topic to read about, between the oil and its mid-east geopolitics to the dawn of a new era of clean energy that will hopefully be more distributed and controlled on a more local level. (Perhaps even produced, and bought and sold by the end consumers themselves.) We are going to have some mind blowing changes within the next 20 years or so.

well yeah but i have heard from mainly a physics teacher who i have talked about with this same discussion... (just a friendly professor in college i talk to... i dont do physics tho)

he said its not the gas its getting the gas combusted safely and without using fossil fuels to do it.

that was aparantly expensive and alot of enerygy gets lost

but hopefully technology will sind a way.

jex · 06-10-2004, 06:35 AM

If you're using more energy to make energy then you're going backwards. If a gallon of fuel provides say, 10 kilo-joules of energy but it takes 15 Kj's to get it out the ground then you're going nowhere fast.

Even if an alternative to energy is found, what are you going to make the rubber or plastic from? or

Make-up
Vaseline
Helmets (bike,cycle, construction)
Pens
Shoes
Tyres
Tarmac
Coffee machines
Computer case
torches
CD's
Tapes
Phones
bins
bottles

We are surrounded by oil-based products. Even if we stopped using it as fuel we're still going to be using it to make everything.

http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/story/chapter08.html - scroll down to the pic for what comes out of a barrel of oil.

**DudeMan** · 06-10-2004, 09:17 AM

jex most comnbusted fuels loose energy, and even peterol looses it because it looses heat energy,

tghe point is how to harness that energy effectivly..

so it isnt going backwards at all.

**GhostintheShell** · 06-10-2004, 09:27 AM

I could do without most if not all of the things on that list. Thats part of the problem, why do we need so much crap? Why are we such big consumer's of all the junk that companies produce? (Me included.) Sure, we still need to produce things from oil, but if we don't heat our homes and power our cars with oil, then the remaining oil will last a lot longer. And who cares if the cost of producing consumer goods made from oil goes up significantly in the next 20 years. Then hopefully people will buy less crap.

Energy is everywhere, its free and its not owned or controlled by anyone, we just have to pay a bit for the equipment to harness and store it.

jex · 06-10-2004, 09:28 AM

Well we can't harness it efficiently at present, but that's not the point I'm making. It's the energy used in extracting the oil. If that is more than the energy produced from the oil then we're producing negative energy. At the moment I don't think there's a problem but I've read that finding fuel and extracting it from the earth is becoming harder. An analogy here is if you eat celery, you use up more calories eating it than you get from it.

**DudeMan** · 06-10-2004, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jex

Well we can't harness it efficiently at present, but that's not the point I'm making. It's the energy used in extracting the oil. If that is more than the energy produced from the oil then we're producing negative energy. At the moment I don't think there's a problem but I've read that finding fuel and extracting it from the earth is becoming harder. An analogy here is if you eat celery, you use up more calories eating it than you get from it.

celerey.... you have been reduced to celery

jex · 06-10-2004, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostintheShell

I could do without most if not all of the things on that list. Thats part of the problem, why do we need so much crap? Why are we such big consumer's of all the junk that companies produce? (Me included.) Sure, we still need to produce things from oil, but if we don't heat our homes and power our cars with oil, then the remaining oil will last a lot longer. And who cares if the cost of producing consumer goods made from oil goes up significantly in the next 20 years. Then hopefully people will buy less crap.

Energy is everywhere, its free and its not owned or controlled by anyone, we just have to pay a bit for the equipment to harness and store it.

Ooh you Bhuddist you

When it comes down to it you don't need anything at all as it goes. And the stuff you do own, well if you look at the molecular level of it, 90% is nothing. Your car is 90% nothing, your book, cooker, tv, etc - so we don't really own that much anyway lol.

**GhostintheShell** · 06-10-2004, 09:41 AM

Yes, thats called the law of diminishing returns. It is also called the law of decreasing returns and the law of variable proportions.

It's costing more and more to find less and less oil.

**GhostintheShell** · 06-10-2004, 09:45 AM

Buddist?

"I don't know how a 400 pound man can teach anyone about discipline and self control." -Jack Nicholson

More like a hobbit. Yes, I could easily live like a hobbit and be totally happy.

LegionPaulL · 06-15-2004, 06:37 PM

Hey man, watch it. Buddist are very enlightened people because unlike Christians, they believe in peace. Foolish man.

**GhostintheShell** · 06-15-2004, 09:33 PM

If they believe in peace why should I "watch it"?

06-15-2004, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionPaulL

Hey man, watch it. Buddist are very enlightened people because unlike Christians, they believe in peace. Foolish man.

Try not to insult too many of us at once time there sparky. I'm christian and I believe in peace - doesnt that just shoot your ****ty generalization right down?

jex · 06-16-2004, 05:39 AM

I thought bhuddists believed in karma rather than peace?

**DudeMan** · 06-16-2004, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegionPaulL

Hey man, watch it. Buddist are very enlightened people because unlike Christians, they believe in peace. Foolish man.

enlightened.... no religiously opressed in my opinion... no freedom to explore no freedom to invent. if the worl was buddhist i would not be talking to you now...

no disrespect to them but i dont see it as enlightenment that they have to follow such strict rules or be punished on biblical terms. it is why i am not religious at all, all god is.. is a authority figure for the masses.. a invention of man to keep themselfs on the straigfht and narrow because somone is watchin....

"Religion Is the Opium of the Masses" Karl Marx....

but i am always careful that i do not disrespect others and their religion paul. this is my beliefe and i have voiced it, i dont expect you to believe it or take it on board infact if you are buddhist then you will hate what i have said, and if you are christian, as Brooklyn has shown me you will want to teach me about the bible.

Even though i did Religious Education and Got an A+

Fait_Maker · 06-16-2004, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

enlightened.... no religiously opressed in my opinion... no freedom to explore no freedom to invent. if the worl was buddhist i would not be talking to you now...

no disrespect to them but i dont see it as enlightenment that they have to follow such strict rules or be punished on biblical terms. it is why i am not religious at all, all god is.. is a authority figure for the masses.. a invention of man to keep themselfs on the straigfht and narrow because somone is watchin....

Wow. I'm atheist and I could be Buddhist. Being Buddhist says nothing about whether or not you believe in a supernatural being. You can be Atheist or a Theist and still be a Buddhist. They don't have a bible nor do Buddhists <as a group> believe in rules and punishment. They seek perfect enlightenment. Buddhist and Taoists are probably the least religiously oppressed groups of the bunch.

06-10-2004, 06:35 AM	#107 (permalink)
jex Join Date: May 2003 Location: United Kingdom Age: 37 Posts: 3,430	Re: gas prices ? If you're using more energy to make energy then you're going backwards. If a gallon of fuel provides say, 10 kilo-joules of energy but it takes 15 Kj's to get it out the ground then you're going nowhere fast. Even if an alternative to energy is found, what are you going to make the rubber or plastic from? or Make-up Vaseline Helmets (bike,cycle, construction) Pens Shoes Tyres Tarmac Coffee machines Computer case torches CD's Tapes Phones bins bottles We are surrounded by oil-based products. Even if we stopped using it as fuel we're still going to be using it to make everything. http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/story/chapter08.html - scroll down to the pic for what comes out of a barrel of oil. __________________ Jex

06-10-2004, 09:17 AM	#108 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: gas prices ? jex most comnbusted fuels loose energy, and even peterol looses it because it looses heat energy, tghe point is how to harness that energy effectivly.. so it isnt going backwards at all.

06-10-2004, 09:27 AM	#109 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: gas prices ? I could do without most if not all of the things on that list. Thats part of the problem, why do we need so much crap? Why are we such big consumer's of all the junk that companies produce? (Me included.) Sure, we still need to produce things from oil, but if we don't heat our homes and power our cars with oil, then the remaining oil will last a lot longer. And who cares if the cost of producing consumer goods made from oil goes up significantly in the next 20 years. Then hopefully people will buy less crap. Energy is everywhere, its free and its not owned or controlled by anyone, we just have to pay a bit for the equipment to harness and store it.

06-10-2004, 09:28 AM	#110 (permalink)
jex Join Date: May 2003 Location: United Kingdom Age: 37 Posts: 3,430	Re: gas prices ? Well we can't harness it efficiently at present, but that's not the point I'm making. It's the energy used in extracting the oil. If that is more than the energy produced from the oil then we're producing negative energy. At the moment I don't think there's a problem but I've read that finding fuel and extracting it from the earth is becoming harder. An analogy here is if you eat celery, you use up more calories eating it than you get from it. __________________ Jex

06-10-2004, 09:41 AM	#113 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: gas prices ? Yes, thats called the law of diminishing returns. It is also called the law of decreasing returns and the law of variable proportions. It's costing more and more to find less and less oil.

06-10-2004, 09:45 AM	#114 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: gas prices ? Buddist? "I don't know how a 400 pound man can teach anyone about discipline and self control." -Jack Nicholson More like a hobbit. Yes, I could easily live like a hobbit and be totally happy.

06-15-2004, 06:37 PM	#115 (permalink)
LegionPaulL Join Date: May 2004 Location: Waco, Texas America Age: 22 Posts: 254	Re: gas prices ? Hey man, watch it. Buddist are very enlightened people because unlike Christians, they believe in peace. Foolish man. __________________ If it is stupid but works, then it is not stupid. -Murphy

06-15-2004, 09:33 PM	#116 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: gas prices ? If they believe in peace why should I "watch it"?

06-16-2004, 05:39 AM	#118 (permalink)
jex Join Date: May 2003 Location: United Kingdom Age: 37 Posts: 3,430	Re: gas prices ? I thought bhuddists believed in karma rather than peace? __________________ Jex

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