No good deed goes unpunished - Page 4

Steeler · 03-25-2006, 03:15 PM

I'm not dismissing anyone, "guy." If this were about protecting our majority allies from a minority enemy then the answer would be easy. But the situation is more complex than that. We have the all-encompassing "insurgency" on one end, with a mixture of foreign Jihadis, Iraqi zealots, new nationalists, ex-Baathists, and others. Some of them are working in concert, some against each other. Then on "our side" we have the Shia militias, government death squads, the Iraqi army and police - most of which have been infiltrated by the militias and other sectarian groups. How many times have we heard of "gunmen dressed as police?" You think guerillas are running around stealing uniforms? They are the police.

I don't think any US citizen can be blamed for looking at the "side" we are defending and asking simply, "why?" If the nascent Iragi government we are trying to defend consists mainly of forces attempting to establish a theocracy, while exacting bloody revenge on their fellow citizens, then WTF are we helping them for?

I can only surmise that the majority of peace lovng, democracy-craving Iraqis are not well represented in the current government. Maybe we should overthrow that and install something more palatable. And again. And again. And again.

**leejo** · 03-25-2006, 03:36 PM

I'm as fond of fighting easy fights and taking on easy jobs as the next guy. But I think we're in a phase of history in which doing nothing, again and again, and again is no longer the best option, even if (perhaps especially when!) there seem to be no good options.

I agree with you that no US citizen can be blamed for looking at the situation and asking why. I DO blame a large group of our citizens for actively opposing our success in these efforts by ignoring or dismissing the good news and amplifying the bad, while also spending a lot of time passing on misinformation as truth. Asking why is one thing, shouting how hopeless and terrible a policy our elected President has chosen to anyone who will listen is quite another matter.

Every politician, commentator, and soldier who returns from Iraq has said basically the same thing: the situation there is far better than portrayed in the media. The whole story is not being told. Why might they say that, and do you believe them or not?

Steeler · 03-25-2006, 03:49 PM

Give me some good news then. Some specific thing that has happened in Iraq this week.

Go find it, I'll read it. I even promise to enjoy it.

**leejo** · 03-25-2006, 04:14 PM

Well, first of all, there were three hostages freed earlier in the week without a shot fired. In case you haven't dug into that story, turns out our very own military worked out a deal with the captured insurgent/criminal such that he either faced 30 years or got to make a phone call telling his friends to get out of the house immediately or be killed. Thankfully all involved made the right decision. So, our military partnered with allies, honored the requests of the CPT to avoid force if possible, didn't torture anyone, and freed 3 people without a shot. Not bad.

Otherwise it's remarkably difficult to find good news. But here's some: http://www.winonadailynews.com/artic...1guest0323.txt

Quote:

In 2002 per capita income was $802. It is now $1,050. Adjusted for inflation, Iraq’s GNP will grow almost 17 percent this year. Traffic is five times heavier than before the war; sales of washers, dryers and computers are way up; cell phone sales are up over 65 percent; and 86 percent of Iraqi homes now have satellite TV. Before the war there were no commercial radios stations. Now there are 72. There are also 44 TV stations and more than 100 newspapers. As Norman Podhoretz points out in the January issue of Commentary magazine, by September 2005, we have helped build or open “3,404 public schools, 304 water and sewage projects, 257 fire and police stations, and 149 public-health facilities.”

There are also at least another 921 projects being worked on.

Seventy percent of Iraq’s citizens say life is good, and 5-to-1 think life will be better in a year. Sixty-one percent say that security is good compared with 50 percent beginning in 2004. The Iraqi army is now more numerous than the U.S. military, and they no longer lose battles. Moreover, two years ago only 39 percent of Iraqi citizens had confidence in the new Iraqi army. Now 67 percent do. Same with the police: Confidence has risen from 45 to 68 percent.

We are creating more terrorists by what we are doing. Isn’t that what we are hearing? Not so fast. Madeleine Albright recently chaired an effort that surveyed 17 nations. Support for terrorists has dropped significantly during the past couple of years: In Lebanon, from 73 to 26 percent; in Morocco from 40 to 13 percent; and in Pakistan from 41 to 25 percent. Osama bin Laden’s support has tanked in almost every Islamic country. Most Muslims don’t like innocents slaughtered any more than we do, and living under a brutal dictator isn’t very appealing either. More Muslims like the idea of democratic rule. In Morocco, Lebanon and Jordan more than 80 percent believe they are ready for democracy. In Iraq itself only 12 percent want an Islamic state while 64 percent favor a democracy. That also means more people in the Muslim world like the U.S. — up 23 percent in Indonesia, 15 points in Lebanon and 16 in Jordan.

A simple google for "good news in Iraq" yields many commentary pieces either shooting down President Bush's assertion that it's out there or bemoaning the MSM's failures. I predict that the MSM is going to begin a concerted effort to tell some good news, if for no other reason than to silence their critics and hopefully stop their hemorrhaging revenue numbers as people simply turn away.

I'll try to keep you posted but I also suggest that you make a personal effort to find some good news out of that region at least once a week. I'll do the same.

Let's take any further debate about this offline. I enjoy our chats but don't wish to bore with our non-stop sidetracks.

**CingularDuality** · 03-26-2006, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usarion

Really? Most of these people are from other contries, not Iraq.

Actually, the Iraqi government is now saying that they think only a few hundred Al Qaeda fighters are still operating in Iraq.

Hmmm, that's funny. I was talking to a retired Border Patrol Agent that was on vacation from his job training the Iraqi border patrol, and he said that they're apprehending dozens of insurgent infiltrators every day just at his location. That would indicate far more than a few hundred that are actually in Iraq.

03-25-2006, 03:15 PM	#46 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: No good deed goes unpunished I'm not dismissing anyone, "guy." If this were about protecting our majority allies from a minority enemy then the answer would be easy. But the situation is more complex than that. We have the all-encompassing "insurgency" on one end, with a mixture of foreign Jihadis, Iraqi zealots, new nationalists, ex-Baathists, and others. Some of them are working in concert, some against each other. Then on "our side" we have the Shia militias, government death squads, the Iraqi army and police - most of which have been infiltrated by the militias and other sectarian groups. How many times have we heard of "gunmen dressed as police?" You think guerillas are running around stealing uniforms? They are the police. I don't think any US citizen can be blamed for looking at the "side" we are defending and asking simply, "why?" If the nascent Iragi government we are trying to defend consists mainly of forces attempting to establish a theocracy, while exacting bloody revenge on their fellow citizens, then WTF are we helping them for? I can only surmise that the majority of peace lovng, democracy-craving Iraqis are not well represented in the current government. Maybe we should overthrow that and install something more palatable. And again. And again. And again. __________________

03-25-2006, 03:36 PM	#47 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: No good deed goes unpunished I'm as fond of fighting easy fights and taking on easy jobs as the next guy. But I think we're in a phase of history in which doing nothing, again and again, and again is no longer the best option, even if (perhaps especially when!) there seem to be no good options. I agree with you that no US citizen can be blamed for looking at the situation and asking why. I DO blame a large group of our citizens for actively opposing our success in these efforts by ignoring or dismissing the good news and amplifying the bad, while also spending a lot of time passing on misinformation as truth. Asking why is one thing, shouting how hopeless and terrible a policy our elected President has chosen to anyone who will listen is quite another matter. Every politician, commentator, and soldier who returns from Iraq has said basically the same thing: the situation there is far better than portrayed in the media. The whole story is not being told. Why might they say that, and do you believe them or not?

03-25-2006, 03:49 PM	#48 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: No good deed goes unpunished Give me some good news then. Some specific thing that has happened in Iraq this week. Go find it, I'll read it. I even promise to enjoy it. __________________

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