New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons - Page 3

xTYBALTx · 03-24-2006, 12:48 PM

There are drugs in our prisons. Drugs in prison. These are some of the most secure complexes in the United States, in which nuns are strip searched for drugs* upon arrival - and still there are drugs.

You can forget about ever "sealing" America's 2,067 mile border with Mexico.

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*sometimes

**leejo** · 03-24-2006, 01:13 PM

Just because we might not be able to achieve 100% security at the borders doesn't mean we should seek to improve the situation. Where are we now? What is possible and for how much $$? That's a mature discussion.

Otherwise what do we do? Throw open the gates and leave our citizens to fend for themselves to secure their physical and economic well-being? That's not a great plan either, though it may be the reality of the situation since no-one, and I mean NO-ONE in office wants to alienate the hispanic vote.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 03-24-2006, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper[SNPR]

As long as we have lazy Americans not willing to get off there asses and do some work we will have illegal immigrants doing those jobs. And i think someone else said it, they are not just taking American jobs they are also taking the jobs from legal immigrants who are here to actually make a difference in this country, and the Mexican government could care less.

If the unemployment rate is around 5% how many Americans and legal immegrents are loosing jobs or just sitting on there asses? Can't be many.

The Bush administration has this one right. Make it stupid easy to get into America to work. Hand out worker Visas like they are candy. Do a thourough security check though. This would make securing the borders much easier.

If somebody is sneaking accross then they are probably doing it because they are up to no good. The border patrol then don't have to run after some guy and his kids looking for a job while terrorists and drug smugglers get lost in the wave.

Spartan25 · 03-25-2006, 01:23 PM

So......Make it easy so anyone can get in? The thing is that even if we do the worker visa thing. It still doesn't dissuade Juan or Achmed from crossing the border illegaly if the security check doesn't allow him in. Actually a solution that probably will take less money than a wall is to position the military on the border to assist the border patrol agents.

http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/8197962/detail.html

An interesting article about a recent incident involving people the looked like they from the mexican military helping drugs cross the borders.

Quote:

There are drugs in our prisons. Drugs in prison. These are some of the most secure complexes in the United States, in which nuns are strip searched for drugs* upon arrival - and still there are drugs.

Its supply, demand, and corruption.

Dirt013 · 03-25-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Trooper[SNPR

I'm with lucky shot on this..I would rather see a 12' brick wall with razor wire running from Texas to Arizona to keep things clean, would be expensive in the beginning but worth millions in the long run.

I agree, but i'm a crazy Nationalist wack job..

**leejo** · 03-25-2006, 02:38 PM

Well I'm with Cing I think in thinking that we primarily need to beef up the border patrol. I suggest using UAVs and sensors not in lieu of added patrols but as force-multipliers.

The primary concern is gaining control of our borders. What to do with the people who are already here and how to adjust immigration policy to be fair and sustain the industries that rely on that workforce are problems that can be solved later.

|TG| B · 03-25-2006, 03:50 PM

Let us shrink the world population to 100 people, just to imagine what I am about to say... 100 individuals living in this world. If so here are the numbers to give you picture of how US is different from the rest of the world.

----------------------------------
57 Asians
21 Europeans
14 Western Hemispherians
8 Africans
----------------------------------
52 Women
48 Men
----------------------------------
70 Non-White
30 White
----------------------------------
70 Non-Christian
30 Christian
----------------------------------
80 live in substandard housing
6 posses 59% of the world's wealth (all of them from the US)
----------------------------------
70 are illiterate
1 would have a college degree
----------------------------------
50 are malnourished
----------------------------------
1 would be dying
1 brith would be taking place
----------------------------------
1 would own a computer

As you can see we all can consider ourselves very very lucky. But with this, comes great responsibility. I am a legal alien, but thus I know so many illegal ones. I will not try to tell the owners of the house what to do. But some of these illegal aliens have overcome unbelievable hardships, it is actually inspiring.

Remember I have no opinion on this bill. Any argument against me will not be answered further.

**leejo** · 03-25-2006, 03:57 PM

Good post B. I think that the majority of Americans honor your friends who work to overcome the hardships you describe. Certainly our President does every time he speaks on the subject.

We also worry about those illegal aliens who are simple criminals or worse. Regardless, we need to control our borders so that we *know* who is here and can manage it. There's an old saying that you can't manage what you can't measure. If we need to allow 2.5 million mexican laborers into the country annually in order to continue to grow certain sectors of the economy, then our immigration policy should be adjusted to accomodate that requirement.

We should *not*, IMO, continue existing policies that create a sub-society within our larger, more prosperous one, comprising people who do not enjoy the same protections under the law or benefits of our society. It reminds me too much of Rome and the old south, and is doomed to fail I think.

**CingularDuality** · 03-26-2006, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

So soup kitchens would need to check for visas before providing food?

Let's stop with the silly hypotheticals... By and large, illegal aliens don't go to soup kitchens. C'mon...

**CingularDuality** · 03-26-2006, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TG_Mateo

Well, below a certain income level, you are conditioned to think that welfare is there for you. So if the choice is $463 per week, or $250 per week busting your ass moping floors, most American's game the system.

I don't think it is a seperate issue, since the "out" is there: so long as Americans can do nothing and make more than they would in one of these "menial" jobs. Illegals do not have that luxury: if someone says: "I'll pay you $5 per day under the table for washing dishes" they take it. That $5 is more than they would make in a week in many places.

Except most illegal aliens aren't working jobs that pay less than minimum wage. Sure, it happens, but it's rare now. Illegal aliens are smart. They know the laws and they're no longer afraid to report their employers. They know that they rarely have to worry about being deported as long as they stay out of jail...

Around here, the most common job of people I arrest is construction for the guys and prostitution for the gals. The construction guys usually get paid $150 a day, which is a little under $15 an hour... The girls get paid on a different sort of pay scale... Regardless, these are not jobs that "Americans aren't willing to do...". That's a complete myth. There's no such thing as a job that an American isn't willing to do.

**SuperDudeBT** · 03-26-2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

At the end of the day, I think that Canada, the United States, and Mexico will merge into one big free trade zone. Free trade erodes borders, pretty much by definition. As trade barriers erode, political barriers will erode too, and eventually you might as well call us one big happy country.

However, we have a little national security thing going on now, so we need them borders shut down pronto. Why we're still talking about this after all the coverage is beyond me. I only hope that *someone* is watching who comes into Mexico pretty carefully, since Mexicans aren't the real threat, it's people who are not Mexican crossing that border.

With regard to what illegal aliens cost the economy, I think you also have to factor in what Mexican labor saves. I don't disagree, I just think the numbers aren't as straight-forward as commonly portrayed, any more than I think that the Wal*Mart costs Ohio X million dollars in medicaid is a straight-forward number. You also have to consider what tax Wal*Mart pays Ohio annually, and whether or not those medicaid recipients were formerly holding down 6-figure jobs or on medicaid anyway...

Same thing here. Sure we support a lot of Mexican children in hospitals and schools, but we also get a lot of chaep labor, and if you're going to complain about the former you'd better account for the latter.

I haven't read past ur post, so I dunno what everyone else has said, but I agree w/ most of it. You have to factor in that the stricter the laws get on illegal immigrants, the higher the cost of agricultural products is going to be.

Spartan25 · 03-26-2006, 07:49 PM

Quote:

I haven't read past ur post, so I dunno what everyone else has said, but I agree w/ most of it. You have to factor in that the stricter the laws get on illegal immigrants, the higher the cost of agricultural products is going to be.

I doubt this and even if it is true I would pay more for my food to have a secure border.

Lucky Shot · 03-26-2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan25

I doubt this and even if it is true I would pay more for my food to have a secure border.

Agree with you and I feel that the higher cost in food would be more than offset by diminishing costs in government paid costs due to having fewer illegals on segments such as schooling, welfare, hospitalization costs, and easing the burden on the justice system. I am all for my tax money going to worthwhile endeavers up to and including being returned to me.

Lucky Shot

**CingularDuality** · 03-27-2006, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

Agree with you and I feel that the higher cost in food would be more than offset by diminishing costs in government paid costs due to having fewer illegals on segments such as schooling, welfare, hospitalization costs, and easing the burden on the justice system.

Yes, this is the falsehood of the "$10 head of lettuce" theory...

aesop rock · 03-27-2006, 05:15 AM

I'm not gonna get into detail, here, because I don't have the time, and unfortunately many people aren't interested in opinions OR facts, when it comes to immigrants.

The fact is, these illegal immigrants don't cost the state anything. In fact, they make the state REDICULOUS amounts of money in taxes, which they (yes) do pay. Both social security, which the immigrants never will see, and local taxes. These illegal immigrants NEVER reap the benefits of said schools, welfare, etc, but they do help PAY for them. In order for an illegal immigrant to collect on benefits, they'd have to have some kind of fake documentation, and this bill wouldn't affect those people anyways, which I'm guessing are quite low in number.

So think what you will about Mexicans, my open-minded Judao-Christian friends, but please drop the whole 'mooching' argument. It's just flat-out innacurate.

03-24-2006, 12:48 PM	#31 (permalink)
xTYBALTx Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,919	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons There are drugs in our prisons. Drugs in prison. These are some of the most secure complexes in the United States, in which nuns are strip searched for drugs* upon arrival - and still there are drugs. You can forget about ever "sealing" America's 2,067 mile border with Mexico. . . . . . . . *sometimes __________________ A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

03-24-2006, 01:13 PM	#32 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons Just because we might not be able to achieve 100% security at the borders doesn't mean we should seek to improve the situation. Where are we now? What is possible and for how much $$? That's a mature discussion. Otherwise what do we do? Throw open the gates and leave our citizens to fend for themselves to secure their physical and economic well-being? That's not a great plan either, though it may be the reality of the situation since no-one, and I mean NO-ONE in office wants to alienate the hispanic vote.

03-25-2006, 02:38 PM	#36 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons Well I'm with Cing I think in thinking that we primarily need to beef up the border patrol. I suggest using UAVs and sensors not in lieu of added patrols but as force-multipliers. The primary concern is gaining control of our borders. What to do with the people who are already here and how to adjust immigration policy to be fair and sustain the industries that rely on that workforce are problems that can be solved later.

03-25-2006, 03:50 PM	#37 (permalink)
\|TG\| B Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 726	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons Let us shrink the world population to 100 people, just to imagine what I am about to say... 100 individuals living in this world. If so here are the numbers to give you picture of how US is different from the rest of the world. ---------------------------------- 57 Asians 21 Europeans 14 Western Hemispherians 8 Africans ---------------------------------- 52 Women 48 Men ---------------------------------- 70 Non-White 30 White ---------------------------------- 70 Non-Christian 30 Christian ---------------------------------- 80 live in substandard housing 6 posses 59% of the world's wealth (all of them from the US) ---------------------------------- 70 are illiterate 1 would have a college degree ---------------------------------- 50 are malnourished ---------------------------------- 1 would be dying 1 brith would be taking place ---------------------------------- 1 would own a computer As you can see we all can consider ourselves very very lucky. But with this, comes great responsibility. I am a legal alien, but thus I know so many illegal ones. I will not try to tell the owners of the house what to do. But some of these illegal aliens have overcome unbelievable hardships, it is actually inspiring. Remember I have no opinion on this bill. Any argument against me will not be answered further.

03-25-2006, 03:57 PM	#38 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons Good post B. I think that the majority of Americans honor your friends who work to overcome the hardships you describe. Certainly our President does every time he speaks on the subject. We also worry about those illegal aliens who are simple criminals or worse. Regardless, we need to control our borders so that we know who is here and can manage it. There's an old saying that you can't manage what you can't measure. If we need to allow 2.5 million mexican laborers into the country annually in order to continue to grow certain sectors of the economy, then our immigration policy should be adjusted to accomodate that requirement. We should not, IMO, continue existing policies that create a sub-society within our larger, more prosperous one, comprising people who do not enjoy the same protections under the law or benefits of our society. It reminds me too much of Rome and the old south, and is doomed to fail I think.

03-27-2006, 05:15 AM	#45 (permalink)
aesop rock Join Date: May 2005 Location: Olympia, WA Age: 27 Posts: 321	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons I'm not gonna get into detail, here, because I don't have the time, and unfortunately many people aren't interested in opinions OR facts, when it comes to immigrants. The fact is, these illegal immigrants don't cost the state anything. In fact, they make the state REDICULOUS amounts of money in taxes, which they (yes) do pay. Both social security, which the immigrants never will see, and local taxes. These illegal immigrants NEVER reap the benefits of said schools, welfare, etc, but they do help PAY for them. In order for an illegal immigrant to collect on benefits, they'd have to have some kind of fake documentation, and this bill wouldn't affect those people anyways, which I'm guessing are quite low in number. So think what you will about Mexicans, my open-minded Judao-Christian friends, but please drop the whole 'mooching' argument. It's just flat-out innacurate. __________________ "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock (http://www.mushrecords.com/release.php?REAID=38) "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God' or 'Good God.. morning!" -Blackalicious It is my firm belief that, until we humans stop using human nature as an excuse for our actions, we will never realize our true nature.

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