New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons - Page 4

**CingularDuality** · 03-27-2006, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesop rock

I'm not gonna get into detail, here, because I don't have the time, and unfortunately many people aren't interested in opinions OR facts, when it comes to immigrants.

The fact is, these illegal immigrants don't cost the state anything. In fact, they make the state REDICULOUS amounts of money in taxes, which they (yes) do pay. Both social security, which the immigrants never will see, and local taxes.

So think what you will about Mexicans, my open-minded Judao-Christian friends, but please drop the whole 'mooching' argument. It's just flat-out innacurate.

No it's not. Sure, they pay sales taxes, and, through their rent, they pay property taxes, but since they don't have social security numbers, they can't pay income taxes. They're usually paid "under the table" by their employers, without it being reported. If they're using a fake green card and social security card, then, any withholdings are indeed kept by the IRS.

I talk to dozens of illegal aliens every day. If you can come up with some "facts" that dispute what I see (which is, admittedly, anecdotal), then perhaps I'll support you.

We're not discussing Mexicans here, so please leave national origin out of it. I don't want some silly racist argument to crop up here, as that's not at all relevent to this discussion.

aesop rock · 03-27-2006, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

We're not discussing Mexicans here, so please leave national origin out of it. I don't want some silly racist argument to crop up here, as that's not at all relevent to this discussion.

Perhaps you were not, but I clearly read a 'border' being discussed. What other border IS there? The Canadian one?

I won't argue about whether or not some people get paid under the table or not, of course they do. But the fact is immigrants (as a whole) pay far more than they take. Believe it or not.

**CingularDuality** · 03-27-2006, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesop rock

Perhaps you were not, but I clearly read a 'border' being discussed. What other border IS there? The Canadian one?

Well, yes, there is the Canadian border, which is a huge problem due to it being ignored for so long. It's now a major source of illegal Chinese immigrants... But, let's suppose that we were talking about the Mexican border. What would then make you equate illegal aliens with just Mexicans? There are people that have illegally crossed the Mexican border that are citizens of El Salvador, Brazil, Argentina, Nigeria, China, the United Kingdom, Spain, Korea, Morocco, Guatemala, Liberia, Cuba, Colombia, Jamaica, Zambia and Pakistan. I think I might have gotten some from Iraq, Iran, Ethiopia, Somalia, and Kenya, but I'm not certain that they entered via the Mexican border, I'd have to double check... Regardless, the point is that our border with Mexico is NOT just a source for illegal Mexicans when it comes to illegal immigration.

Quote:

I won't argue about whether or not some people get paid under the table or not, of course they do. But the fact is immigrants (as a whole) pay far more than they take. Believe it or not.

Not.

**PanzerHans** · 03-27-2006, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

..... that are citizens of El Salvador, Brazil, Argentina, Nigeria, China, the United Kingdom, Spain, Korea, Morocco, Guatemala, Liberia, Cuba, Colombia, Jamaica, Zambia and Pakistan. I think I might have gotten some from Iraq, Iran, Ethiopia, Somalia, and Kenya, but I'm not certain that they entered via the Mexican borde.....

What , no Scandinavians? That is totally unacceptable

**Apophis** · 03-27-2006, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesop rock

...many people aren't interested in opinions OR facts, when it comes to immigrants.

The fact is, these illegal immigrants don't cost the state anything. In fact, they make the state REDICULOUS amounts of money in taxes, which they (yes) do pay. Both social security, which the immigrants never will see, and local taxes. These illegal immigrants NEVER reap the benefits of said schools, welfare, etc, but they do help PAY for them.

Oddly enough I was listening to a talk radio show during lunch, one of the thing they covered was the cost of illegal immigrants to the state of Rhode Island. As it turns out, our state spends over $88 MILLION per year on education of illegal immigrants. Less than 10% of the parents of these children in school are even paying taxes, of any sort, through legally obtained and paid jobs.

I'm curious where you got your information as it just doesn't seem to make sense to me at all.

**Apophis** · 03-27-2006, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesop rock

But the fact is immigrants (as a whole) pay far more than they take. Believe it
or not.

Why don't you share the source of these "facts" that you're on about. I've said this plenty of times in this forum before, but when it comes to immigration, immigrants, and their effect on our population, Cingular *IS* a qualified source.

I'm not sure what you do for a living up there in Washington or how it relates to immigration. But until you disclose either your professional expertise in the subject or where you're getting these "facts" from, I'd choose the same road as Cingular.

"Not"

Lucky Shot · 03-27-2006, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesop rock

I'm not gonna get into detail, here, because I don't have the time, and unfortunately many people aren't interested in opinions OR facts, when it comes to immigrants.

The fact is, these illegal immigrants don't cost the state anything.

According to the Washington Times, 12/7...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...2115-6766r.htm

Quote:

Illegal immigration costs the taxpayers of California — which has the highest number of illegal aliens nationwide — $10.5 billion a year for education, health care and incarceration, according to a study released yesterday.
A key finding of the report by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) said the state's already struggling kindergarten-through-12th-grade education system spends $7.7 billion a year on children of illegal aliens, who constitute 15 percent of the student body.
The report also said the incarceration of convicted illegal aliens in state prisons and jails and uncompensated medical outlays for health care provided to illegal aliens each amounted to about $1.4 billion annually. The incarceration costs did not include judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes committed by illegal aliens that led to their incarceration.
"California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal-alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle-class tax base," said FAIR President Dan Stein.

10.5 billion sounds like quite a bit more than 0. Hopefully you are someone who can be swayed by facts. Please show me a study where illegal immigration costs 0 dollars.

In 2002, here was the added benefit of having illegal aliens and here is the cost to the system...

Quote:

In August, a similar study by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, said U.S. households headed by illegal aliens used $26.3 billion in government services during 2002, but paid $16 billion in taxes, an annual cost to taxpayers of $10 billion.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html supports the numbers put out by the Washington Times.
Here is the anticipated jump in costs if we granted amnesty to illegals...

Quote:

If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion

Doesn't strike me as a win. I don't know why we are trying to make it easy for those trying to cheat the system as illegals are the equivalent of Lunch Line Cutters trying to get the spoils without having to wait in line at the expense of people immigrating legaly.

Lucky Shot

**leejo** · 03-27-2006, 10:13 AM

Well, I don't like costs we're talking about but frankly I think I'd rather not focus on the money. There is a strong perception at least that the vast majority of illegal aliens are in fact pretty decent people who may have made a pretty big mistake by crossing illegally instead of legally, but who knows what story they were told on the other side of the border about how easy they might get a visa?

I have no beef with these people who aren't committing further crimes here, and a major beef with those who are. Again, my concern is that we secure the border. It is so basic to the notion of homeland security. The fact that we have to discuss it at all speaks volumes about how politically charged the issue is.

xTYBALTx · 03-27-2006, 11:14 AM

Remember, folks, that American citizens have cost the country 8,310,200,545,702 -- dollars ... and counting.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 03-27-2006, 01:38 PM

What is the context for all these numbers being bandied about?

10.5 billion does sound like allot for illegal immigrants. But what is the total cost for a similar group of Americans making the same wages?

Hey, I know a number of Americans getting paid under the table today. I did as a kid. Worked farm jobs and got paid cash. Allot of kids in my area did that. Many adults as well. (Farmers have a rich tradition of bypassing government regulation and taxes. It comes with the personality needed to work long hours under severe conditions with no guarantee of a reward of any kind.)

And if you subtract the cost of services rendered by said illegal’s, how much is that 10.5 billion now? Not to mention the products and services they bought from local businesses. My home town was dying before the current illegal (mostly Mexican) workers moved in. Old dilapidated houses are now being fixed up and businesses barely hanging on are now actually making a go of it. Even some new ones are being opened up.

That is something that hasn’t been brought up. These immigrants are bringing some dying rural towns back to life.

That is worth something...Isn't it?

Edit
I wanted to add that even though the immigrants are a sizable percentage of the population and the families speak spanish, the kids, outside of the family setting, generally refuse to speak Spanish. I believe most everybody wants to integrate with the enviroment. Built into our DNA or something.

**CingularDuality** · 03-27-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanzerHans

What , no Scandinavians? That is totally unacceptable

I've dealt with two Swedes and a Norwegian, but they were all here on student visas...

**CingularDuality** · 03-27-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

What is the context for all these numbers being bandied about?

10.5 billion does sound like allot for illegal immigrants. But what is the total cost for a similar group of Americans making the same wages?

Does it matter? We can't deport US Citizens! Illegal immigration is something that we can and should do something about! This is something that I point out to my, uh, clients in the jail. If they're not deportable (yet), I tell them to look around the holding cell at all the Americans in jail. I can't do anything about those scumbags. But the law is written so that a legal alien convicted of certain crimes can be deported. Why? Because we can. And it makes our country a better place. I'm disgusted whenever (frequently) I think about just how many American scumbags I see, compared to the number of good, hard working illegal immigrants. This doesn't change the fact that we need to enforce our immigration laws, regardless of whether or not the illegal immigrant is good and hard working...

Quote:

I wanted to add that even though the immigrants are a sizable percentage of the population and the families speak spanish, the kids, outside of the family setting, generally refuse to speak Spanish. I believe most everybody wants to integrate with the enviroment. Built into our DNA or something.

You obviously don't live in a city. In any city in America, I can take you to a part of town where almost everyone doesn't speak English. If it's a large city, I can take you to a neighborhood where a whole block of businesses is unable to understand your English.

Yeah, sure, individuals want to integrate. But when they have an entire sub-culture that is rapidly growing, is already operating outside of the law (immigration), and that offers a cultural and communication barrier to the rest of society (police, business, government), individual integration has nothing to do with speaking English.

Steeler · 03-27-2006, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Yeah, sure, individuals want to integrate. But when they have an entire sub-culture that is rapidly growing, is already operating outside of the law (immigration), and that offers a cultural and communication barrier to the rest of society (police, business, government), individual integration has nothing to do with speaking English.

I find that most of the people I know who approve of this bill (and I'm NOT referring to anyone in this thread), are more concerned with the sub-culture issue than with any actual hard data on social policy. In many places it is a crisis of ethnic conflict first and an economic annoyance second.

For the record, I'm not a fan of the "fortress America" mentality. This bill, in it's current form, does little to increase our ability to prevent criminals from crossing the border. Instead it criminalizes more activities to a draconian degree. I think there's a middle ground somewhere. Maybe give more resources to the border patrol and the already-stretched INS.

**CingularDuality** · 03-27-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

I find that most of the people I know who approve of this bill (and I'm NOT referring to anyone in this thread), are more concerned with the sub-culture issue than with any actual hard data on social policy. In many places it is a crisis of ethnic conflict first and an economic annoyance second.

Well, it is an issue to think about, as these communities continue to segregate themselves more and more. It doesn't particularly concern me, as I grew up in Tucson and San Diego and now live in Texas. In all of these places, we have a strong overlap with the immigrant culture from Mexico. And I, for one, enjoy it immensely. I don't know what my life would've been like without pinatas at my birthday parties, without flautas, tortas, and chimichangas, without the many things that I'm sure I take for granted, but would miss if they weren't there...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

For the record, I'm not a fan of the "fortress America" mentality. This bill, in it's current form, does little to increase our ability to prevent criminals from crossing the border. Instead it criminalizes more activities to a draconian degree. I think there's a middle ground somewhere. Maybe give more resources to the border patrol and the already-stretched INS.

Did you read the bill? Did you read what it's supposed to do to the budget? Did you read how it will reorganize the Department of Homeland Security? Please don't assume that the new articles you're seeing are summarizing the bill correctly. The new penalties are a very small part of this bill!

Steeler · 03-27-2006, 03:53 PM

I've read the parts that I could find online and some of the commentary on the key points. I'm not clear on the DHS "restructuring," but since the DHS is already a bureaucratic morass I'm not really sure what to make of anything they decide to do with it. Could you fill me in on how the department will change?

From what I understand though, procedurally the new penalties are quite significant. It transfers a lot of federal authority to local police to detain suspects, and requires that undocumented immigrants be held in detention until they are deported, regardless of due process. It reduces the availability of hearings and judicial review, and imposes mandatory sentencing on the cases that do make it to court. It also bars any current and former illegals from gaining the "good moral standing" requirement for citizenship, effectively walling off the entire naturalization process from illegals who might otherwise become citizens.

The bill also eliminates (I think, this is less clear) the "willful deportation" option, whereby a suspect can opt to leave the country under his own power after a hearing rather than be transported by federal agents. This would apply to more than just our southern border, but also to immigrants and visitors from all over the world.

I just think the situation would be much better addressed by providing legitimate paths to (tax-paying) citizenship than criminalizing 11 million people and all those who do business with them. Surely you don't think we can forcibly deport such a huge number of people?

03-27-2006, 10:13 AM	#53 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons Well, I don't like costs we're talking about but frankly I think I'd rather not focus on the money. There is a strong perception at least that the vast majority of illegal aliens are in fact pretty decent people who may have made a pretty big mistake by crossing illegally instead of legally, but who knows what story they were told on the other side of the border about how easy they might get a visa? I have no beef with these people who aren't committing further crimes here, and a major beef with those who are. Again, my concern is that we secure the border. It is so basic to the notion of homeland security. The fact that we have to discuss it at all speaks volumes about how politically charged the issue is.

03-27-2006, 11:14 AM	#54 (permalink)
xTYBALTx Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,919	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons Remember, folks, that American citizens have cost the country 8,310,200,545,702 -- dollars ... and counting. __________________ A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

03-27-2006, 01:38 PM	#55 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 40 Posts: 2,861	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons What is the context for all these numbers being bandied about? 10.5 billion does sound like allot for illegal immigrants. But what is the total cost for a similar group of Americans making the same wages? Hey, I know a number of Americans getting paid under the table today. I did as a kid. Worked farm jobs and got paid cash. Allot of kids in my area did that. Many adults as well. (Farmers have a rich tradition of bypassing government regulation and taxes. It comes with the personality needed to work long hours under severe conditions with no guarantee of a reward of any kind.) And if you subtract the cost of services rendered by said illegal’s, how much is that 10.5 billion now? Not to mention the products and services they bought from local businesses. My home town was dying before the current illegal (mostly Mexican) workers moved in. Old dilapidated houses are now being fixed up and businesses barely hanging on are now actually making a go of it. Even some new ones are being opened up. That is something that hasn’t been brought up. These immigrants are bringing some dying rural towns back to life. That is worth something...Isn't it? Edit I wanted to add that even though the immigrants are a sizable percentage of the population and the families speak spanish, the kids, outside of the family setting, generally refuse to speak Spanish. I believe most everybody wants to integrate with the enviroment. Built into our DNA or something.

03-27-2006, 03:53 PM	#60 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons I've read the parts that I could find online and some of the commentary on the key points. I'm not clear on the DHS "restructuring," but since the DHS is already a bureaucratic morass I'm not really sure what to make of anything they decide to do with it. Could you fill me in on how the department will change? From what I understand though, procedurally the new penalties are quite significant. It transfers a lot of federal authority to local police to detain suspects, and requires that undocumented immigrants be held in detention until they are deported, regardless of due process. It reduces the availability of hearings and judicial review, and imposes mandatory sentencing on the cases that do make it to court. It also bars any current and former illegals from gaining the "good moral standing" requirement for citizenship, effectively walling off the entire naturalization process from illegals who might otherwise become citizens. The bill also eliminates (I think, this is less clear) the "willful deportation" option, whereby a suspect can opt to leave the country under his own power after a hearing rather than be transported by federal agents. This would apply to more than just our southern border, but also to immigrants and visitors from all over the world. I just think the situation would be much better addressed by providing legitimate paths to (tax-paying) citizenship than criminalizing 11 million people and all those who do business with them. Surely you don't think we can forcibly deport such a huge number of people? __________________

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