New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons - Page 5

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 03-27-2006, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande
What is the context for all these numbers being bandied about?

10.5 billion does sound like allot for illegal immigrants. But what is the total cost for a similar group of Americans making the same wages?

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Does it matter? We can't deport US Citizens! Illegal immigration is something that we can and should do something about! This is something that I point out to my, uh, clients in the jail. If they're not deportable (yet), I tell them to look around the holding cell at all the Americans in jail. I can't do anything about those scumbags. But the law is written so that a legal alien convicted of certain crimes can be deported. Why? Because we can. And it makes our country a better place. I'm disgusted whenever (frequently) I think about just how many American scumbags I see, compared to the number of good, hard working illegal immigrants. This doesn't change the fact that we need to enforce our immigration laws, regardless of whether or not the illegal immigrant is good and hard working...

Hmm. My point about the money was that just stating numbers does not give a full picture.

And this does matter. It matters because what is to be done about the situation is being debated right now in this forum, in congress and in America.

There are laws currently but they are unenforceable. It would take 200,000 buses to deport all the illegal’s in this country which would stretch something like 1700 miles. (At least that is was George Will stated.) Even if we could deport them, what do we do about the children that are American citizens or the illegal’s that are married to American citizens? In addition many businesses want and even need these workers to survive. As you and others have stated, we do not have the boarder patrol or immigration personnel to enforce the laws in place. Is the cost of that extra personnel worth it? Is there a cheaper way to achieve the same effect?

These unenforceable laws are in some ways worse than no laws at all. It either causes contempt for the law in general since they so poorly reflect what most of us see and experience or contempt for the people breaking the law. And neither of these things helps our country in the least.

So many if not most people think the current laws need to be re-visited: Either by re-writing them to reflect reality and help balance the situation or to provide the resources to enforce them as written so as to change reality.

To have this discussion I feel that raw numbers are not enough and so wanted some context.

Thus: Do low wage workers in America cost just as much? If Americans where to replace the illgel’s would these number go up or down? (My guess is up since Americans have a sense of entitlement and can vote in people to satisfy that sense. Immigrants probably don’t have the former and defiantly can’t do the latter until they are citizens.) These are important questions and I think they need to be answered. And while I know our discussion will not affect what is currently going on in Washington it does have an effect among us.

And I never, and I hope you didn’t, mean to say that low wage workers are “scumbags”. This could be implied by our exchange and I want to clarify.

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I wanted to add that even though the immigrants are a sizable percentage of the population and the families speak spanish, the kids, outside of the family setting, generally refuse to speak Spanish. I believe most everybody wants to integrate with the enviroment. Built into our DNA or something.

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You obviously don't live in a city. In any city in America, I can take you to a part of town where almost everyone doesn't speak English. If it's a large city, I can take you to a neighborhood where a whole block of businesses is unable to understand your English.

Yeah, sure, individuals want to integrate. But when they have an entire sub-culture that is rapidly growing, is already operating outside of the law (immigration), and that offers a cultural and communication barrier to the rest of society (police, business, government), individual integration has nothing to do with speaking English.

This is something I can speak to. I do live in a large (well medium size) city. My wife is from Ecuador and her sister lives here. By brother in law’s family is from Puerto Rico. My wife and her sister are legal. My wife is working on citizenship and her sister is already a citizen. All of my wife’s friends and co-workers, outside of me and my daughter, are from Latin America. When they are together all they speak is Spanish.

When I go to the markets downtown (where prices are cheaper than wal-mart) everybody speaks Spanish. At parties I am one of two people that understands little of what is said. (The other is another American guy married to a Brazilian.)

The funny thing is many of them speak at least a little English, some rather well. Some are embarrassed that it is so poor so don’t speak up around “Americans”. Others learned “proper” English and simply can’t understand the slang that is spoken in the section of the city that they can afford to live. (Or, in my locality, don’t understand the Okie which often degrades into our colourfull clichés that I barely grasp at times. And I was raised here.)

And you are right, they don’t want to loose their identity. They actually refuse to. They are very proud of it. They do have a sub-culture. Those that do not fear the law strive harder to learn English and at least try and understand the culture in which they live. Those that are not here legally avoid situations where American culture is available.

So what if we made them legal? It is my experience that they would be less afraid of their surroundings and would venture further away from their safe “mini-Mexico” or what have you and become more integrated. Some would never do this, of course. But I can take you to a place in Chicago where many people still speak Polish, and they or their parents came through Ellis Island many years ago.

And these barriers you speak of. Some of these problems are caused by us Americans. We often act, if not believe, that our culture is superior and anybody coming here must abandon what they are and be like "us".* We treat them with suspicion. My wife, and I, gets very angry when others assume she is from a certain latin american country and is trying to find a service type job. She has a master’s in International Import/Export from a University in Rotterdam. She was a high level manager at a very large sea port in Ecuador. But because she has a Spanish accent many first think “illegal”.

Is it not surprising then that they stick to the familiar? But ultimately she understands the reaction and, like many in her stituation, work that much harder to convince those that matter that she has something to contribute and will contribute.

But these things are only temporary and there is business opportunity here as well. Find these subcultures, learn their language and then perform services for either side. Many cultures have come to this country and any problems they have caused have been dwarfed by their contributions.

*This is not limited to Americans. All cultures display these attitudes and or actions. In many ways I would state that Amercans are better than most. But since we are currently talking about an Amercian problem I wanted to point out that this does happen and it is one of the causes of an issue Cingular brought up. A problem that can be corrected to a certian extent.

**Trooper** · 03-27-2006, 05:39 PM

Good points and well stated. Now think of that from a tax payers prospective, do you want your hard earned tax paying dollars to go to your childrens educational needs or paying to have the illegals cared for. My vote is my own family and children. Or do other countries want illegal immagrants coming into there territories and useing up their resources.

When ever there is a refugee crisis somewher and a country closes its boarders, why doesnt it get as much attention as when the USA wants to make it harder for illegals to mooch off the system?

**leejo** · 03-27-2006, 05:55 PM

I think the way we can best make everyone happy is simply to move our border several hundred miles south to Guatamala and Belize. That way we can secure a much shorter border, all the Mexicans can have as much "US Taxpayer" money as their children need for education and health, the farmers can have as much labor as they please, and no-one has to cuff poor Jesus.

It's just a matter of time so let's all bite the bullet.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 03-27-2006, 06:28 PM

That is an interesting question. Honestly I have never thought that paying taxes directly benefited me or my family. Really. I always thought in terms of benefiting the country and/or town in which I lived. (As a youngster I had to rationalize the respect I had for Ronald Reagan and the general conservative values of my region with the fact that my family existed off of welfare. I decided that welfare was simply to get me to a place where I could give back to help the nation better it's self.)

And I still believe that. And if paying 10 billion extra a year (out of 2200 billion or about .5 percent) make our country more completive in the world, then I don't see a big problem with that. I say this in part because of the Sunday news shows I watched yesterday. Nobody argued in the shows that I watched, not even the conservatives, that these workers are harming our economy at this point. Many stated that it makes the US very competitive in the world market place and without them America would suffer.

And if we make these workers legal then some of that money will be recouped.

And these people are not really refugees. They are not holed up in camps. They are, for the most part, working and providing services. Coming over because some in our country want them.

And it does get attention, just not in the American media. Watch some Latin TV or listen to the BBC and it is looked at in detail.

I am saying that the economic issue is not the real one. It is the security issues and I answered that one earlier. (IE let in the workers and the market for fake papers dries up and it becomes easier to secure the borders yadda yadda yadda.)

Lucky Shot · 03-27-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

Remember, folks, that American citizens have cost the country 8,310,200,545,702 -- dollars ... and counting.

Your right! And that's why we should make SMART decisions about our money. Remember, that 10.5 Billion was for one state, there are 49 more. I can't say that it would save every state the same amount, however, every little bit counts toward dropping the deficeit. Good thinking Tybalt!

Lucky Shot

Lucky Shot · 03-27-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

And I still believe that. And if paying 10 billion extra a year (out of 2200 billion or about .5 percent) make our country more completive in the world, then I don't see a big problem with that. I say this in part because of the Sunday news shows I watched yesterday. Nobody argued in the shows that I watched, not even the conservatives, that these workers are harming our economy at this point. Many stated that it makes the US very competitive in the world market place and without them America would suffer.

I don't see this making us more competitive as we are subsidizing their work through government grants to the agricultural business as well as to the workers by who draw more benefits than they pay back. I see subsidies for the business and indirect subsidies for the worker. That makes them Less competitive on the global market, not more. Let markets do their work. Remember, the 10.5 Billion is only for one state, not for the entire country. I disagree with you .5% based on that fact, and regardless, that money could be used for better things.

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And if we make these workers legal then some of that money will be recouped.

Please re-read this.

"If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion."

This is a bigger drain and that money is not re-couped.

Lucky Shot

xTYBALTx · 03-27-2006, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

Your right! And that's why we should make SMART decisions about our money. Remember, that 10.5 Billion was for one state, there are 49 more. I can't say that it would save every state the same amount, however, every little bit counts toward dropping the deficeit. Good thinking Tybalt!

Lucky Shot

How cute.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 03-27-2006, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

I don't see this making us more competitive as we are subsidizing their work through government grants to the agricultural business as well as to the workers by who draw more benefits than they pay back. I see subsidies for the business and indirect subsidies for the worker. That makes them Less competitive on the global market, not more. Let markets do their work.

Hey, I don't understand it either but even conservitives like George Will don't deny it. (http://a.media.abcnews.com/podcasts/...sweek_show.mp3) I think it comes down to labor cost. Labor being the most expensive part of most businesses, especially agribusiness.

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Remember, the 10.5 Billion is only for one state, not for the entire country. I disagree with you .5% based on that fact, and regardless, that money could be used for better things.

I was going by this quote from your earlier post

"In August, a similar study by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, said U.S. households headed by illegal aliens used $26.3 billion in government services during 2002, but paid $16 billion in taxes, an annual cost to taxpayers of $10 billion." I assumed that was federal costs.

But you are right that I didn't include states, which probably carry most of the costs. This definatly would have to be factored in and the border states would have to be compensated for their extra burden.

Quote:

Please re-read this.

"If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion."

Well that orginization has a political agenda and I do (edit) not know where that extra 5000 comes from. Schools already have to except students. Emergency rooms already have to treat those that come in. DHS already supports the babies and children. And do they assume that the workers would remain at the wages they currently are at and never gain income?

At any rate I am not saying that we let everyone in or give passes to everybody already here, only those that currently have work or can be employed and are not a threat to national security. And that increase in cost could be just a price we pay for a bit more security.

And once again, what is the alternative? Kick them all out who takes their place? Does america even have 11 million workers that can do those jobs? Leave the situation as is and remain in the dark on who is here and where?

Leejo, your idea isn't that far off the mark. Some say that more free trade would help stem the problem. Many I know would not have left their home country had there been decent jobs there. (NAFTA being not all it was cracked up to be.)

Lucky Shot · 03-28-2006, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

I was going by this quote from your earlier post

"In August, a similar study by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, said U.S. households headed by illegal aliens used $26.3 billion in government services during 2002, but paid $16 billion in taxes, an annual cost to taxpayers of $10 billion." I assumed that was federal costs.

But you are right that I didn't include states, which probably carry most of the costs. This definatly would have to be factored in and the border states would have to be compensated for their extra burden.

I see the word Compensated and am not sure why states should be compensated from (assuming) the federal government. There is a huge burden on the states to take care of illegal immigrants. Right now, illegals are charged with a misdemeanor and then asked to reappear for a court date. The Courts generally rule to deport that illegal, so there is no incentive for an illegal to appear in court. A Felony puts additional weight into the penalty, and would give local authorities greater strength in holding onto the alien until their court date. The borders right now are a sieve and there has to be a strong enough disincentive to discourage those who break our law from entering. I disagree with diverting funds from the federal government to compensate the states for welfare, hospitalization etc... I do agree that the Federal Government is responsible for securing the border and should use tax money for this purpose as well as strengthening roundups within interior of the US.

Quote:

Well that orginization has a political agenda and I do (edit) not know where that extra 5000 comes from. Schools already have to except students. Emergency rooms already have to treat those that come in. DHS already supports the babies and children. And do they assume that the workers would remain at the wages they currently are at and never gain income?

Americans who make the same amount of money as the typical illegal use $5000 more than illegals because they feel entitled to them. The thought is that once they are eligible for those additional benefits, they too will apply for them. That's where the $5000 comes from.

Quote:

At any rate I am not saying that we let everyone in or give passes to everybody already here, only those that currently have work or can be employed and are not a threat to national security. And that increase in cost could be just a price we pay for a bit more security.

I don't see how this increases our security and the increase in cost is better spent on other projects.

Quote:

And once again, what is the alternative? Kick them all out who takes their place? Does america even have 11 million workers that can do those jobs? Leave the situation as is and remain in the dark on who is here and where?

The alternative is what is suggested, enforce current laws and put more teeth in them. Stiffen the border and make it very difficult to enter from that standpoint. Once the border is secure, loosen the requirements to become a LEGAL immigrant as this is really the issue. People will spend 10-20 years trying to immigrate, but we make it so difficult that people will try to arrive illegaly. That's outrageous. The reason why sneaking in is so tempting is that it's riduculously tough to arrive normally. So bigger stick, but also make the carrot easier to grab.

Lucky Shot

**CingularDuality** · 03-28-2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

I've read the parts that I could find online and some of the commentary on the key points.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.4437:

**CingularDuality** · 03-28-2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

And once again, what is the alternative? Kick them all out who takes their place? Does america even have 11 million workers that can do those jobs?

Some of you act like we can pass this bill, snap our fingers and 12 million illegal aliens will disappear like in the movie "A Day Without a Mexican" (excellent film, BTW). Enforcing our immigration laws, I'm personally somewhat glad, will be a neverending job. I don't think I'll ever have to worry about being unemployed...

**Iceberg** · 04-02-2006, 02:28 PM

I didn't thoroughly read through every ones post, but here are my thoughts on this:

- Pressure should be placed on American businesses who are employing illegal immigrants and not some law that makes illegal immigrants felons.

- I have no problem with turning every single current illegal immigrant into a US citizen. They need to pay taxes on their income. As an illegal, they are a burden on the US economy and average joes who pay taxes. Being a citizen means they can vote.

- As long as they live in this country, they *should* get the same rights as any other US citizen... but NOT being a citizen SHOULD mean they DONT.

- I'm offended as hell to the position taken by the Mexican President. We should just annex Mexico and be done with this.

- I have a problem with the "foreign worker" program. Screw that. Become a US citizen or gtfo.

- And anyone claiming that "Mexicans take jobs that everyday joes don't take" I say SCREW THAT. Having illegals work these jobs doesn't allow our economy to "balance out". Why do you think that minimum wage is still so low? The cost of living (legally) in the US is out of proportion to minimum wage jobs - supply and demand.

Summary: You want to live and work here? FINE, but you need to pull your own damn weight. Why should I, a US citizen, allow you to earn tax free wages and pay (through my taxes) for you to have emergency health care and freedoms (no selective service, no background checks)?

**CingularDuality** · 04-02-2006, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeak

I didn't thoroughly read through every ones post, but here are my thoughts on this:

- Pressure should be placed on American businesses who are employing illegal immigrants and not some law that makes illegal immigrants felons.

Agreed, although, as I said earlier, making it a felony to be here illegally will change nothing as we don't even have the resources to prosecute all of the aggravated felons and alien smugglers right now...

Quote:

- I have no problem with turning every single current illegal immigrant into a US citizen. They need to pay taxes on their income. As an illegal, they are a burden on the US economy and average joes who pay taxes. Being a citizen means they can vote.

There is absolutely no way that anyone that entered this country in a criminal manner should be rewarded for their behavior by being granted the ultimate reward that this country can provide to someone from another country. And what about the thousands and thousands of good people that are waiting in their country for a US Visa so that they can immigrate here the right way? What would we be saying to them if we did this?

Quote:

- As long as they live in this country, they *should* get the same rights as any other US citizen... but NOT being a citizen SHOULD mean they DONT.

Why should they get the same rights as a US Citizen?

Quote:

- I'm offended as hell to the position taken by the Mexican President. We should just annex Mexico and be done with this.

He's looking out for the best interests of Mexico. <shrug>

Quote:

- I have a problem with the "foreign worker" program. Screw that. Become a US citizen or gtfo.

Do you really want millions and millions of illegals that don't speak English and aren't integrated with our society to suddenly be voters in this country?

Quote:

- And anyone claiming that "Mexicans take jobs that everyday joes don't take" I say SCREW THAT. Having illegals work these jobs doesn't allow our economy to "balance out". Why do you think that minimum wage is still so low? The cost of living (legally) in the US is out of proportion to minimum wage jobs - supply and demand.

True.

Quote:

Summary: You want to live and work here? FINE, but you need to pull your own damn weight. Why should I, a US citizen, allow you to earn tax free wages and pay (through my taxes) for you to have emergency health care and freedoms (no selective service, no background checks)?

Agreed, but some of your points are misguided or not thought out, IMO.

letterman · 04-02-2006, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroripper

It seems like such a draconian measure in my opinion, and un-American at best. Thoughts?

should it be a felony to enter and maintain a residency in the united states illegally?

Let's see, in short that would involve:

Illegal Entry into Host Nation
Fraudulent Identity or Creditentials
Theft of Government Services
Tax Evasion

Have I missed any other crimes that would be implicit in illegal residence?

Draconian? I'm more worried about the criminals, not the cops.

**Trooper** · 04-02-2006, 11:26 PM

Why you worried about the cops. They would actually have a real immigartoin law to inforce. And everything you listed is a felony for a citizen to do.

03-27-2006, 05:39 PM	#62 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,894	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons Good points and well stated. Now think of that from a tax payers prospective, do you want your hard earned tax paying dollars to go to your childrens educational needs or paying to have the illegals cared for. My vote is my own family and children. Or do other countries want illegal immagrants coming into there territories and useing up their resources. When ever there is a refugee crisis somewher and a country closes its boarders, why doesnt it get as much attention as when the USA wants to make it harder for illegals to mooch off the system? __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

03-27-2006, 05:55 PM	#63 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons I think the way we can best make everyone happy is simply to move our border several hundred miles south to Guatamala and Belize. That way we can secure a much shorter border, all the Mexicans can have as much "US Taxpayer" money as their children need for education and health, the farmers can have as much labor as they please, and no-one has to cuff poor Jesus. It's just a matter of time so let's all bite the bullet.

03-27-2006, 06:28 PM	#64 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 40 Posts: 2,861	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons That is an interesting question. Honestly I have never thought that paying taxes directly benefited me or my family. Really. I always thought in terms of benefiting the country and/or town in which I lived. (As a youngster I had to rationalize the respect I had for Ronald Reagan and the general conservative values of my region with the fact that my family existed off of welfare. I decided that welfare was simply to get me to a place where I could give back to help the nation better it's self.) And I still believe that. And if paying 10 billion extra a year (out of 2200 billion or about .5 percent) make our country more completive in the world, then I don't see a big problem with that. I say this in part because of the Sunday news shows I watched yesterday. Nobody argued in the shows that I watched, not even the conservatives, that these workers are harming our economy at this point. Many stated that it makes the US very competitive in the world market place and without them America would suffer. And if we make these workers legal then some of that money will be recouped. And these people are not really refugees. They are not holed up in camps. They are, for the most part, working and providing services. Coming over because some in our country want them. And it does get attention, just not in the American media. Watch some Latin TV or listen to the BBC and it is looked at in detail. I am saying that the economic issue is not the real one. It is the security issues and I answered that one earlier. (IE let in the workers and the market for fake papers dries up and it becomes easier to secure the borders yadda yadda yadda.)

04-02-2006, 02:28 PM	#72 (permalink)
Iceberg Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Illinois Age: 25 Posts: 1,931	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons I didn't thoroughly read through every ones post, but here are my thoughts on this: - Pressure should be placed on American businesses who are employing illegal immigrants and not some law that makes illegal immigrants felons. - I have no problem with turning every single current illegal immigrant into a US citizen. They need to pay taxes on their income. As an illegal, they are a burden on the US economy and average joes who pay taxes. Being a citizen means they can vote. - As long as they live in this country, they should get the same rights as any other US citizen... but NOT being a citizen SHOULD mean they DONT. - I'm offended as hell to the position taken by the Mexican President. We should just annex Mexico and be done with this. - I have a problem with the "foreign worker" program. Screw that. Become a US citizen or gtfo. - And anyone claiming that "Mexicans take jobs that everyday joes don't take" I say SCREW THAT. Having illegals work these jobs doesn't allow our economy to "balance out". Why do you think that minimum wage is still so low? The cost of living (legally) in the US is out of proportion to minimum wage jobs - supply and demand. Summary: You want to live and work here? FINE, but you need to pull your own damn weight. Why should I, a US citizen, allow you to earn tax free wages and pay (through my taxes) for you to have emergency health care and freedoms (no selective service, no background checks)? __________________ It only takes 2 bites [insert parasite] to get to the center of a meatpop. TGNS Admin \| NS Forum Moderator Digz \| NS Play Tester Natural Selection \| TGNS Primer \| Communication Awareness! Army Info: Deployment or Bust - June 2009

04-02-2006, 11:26 PM	#75 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,894	Re: New US bill seeks to make all illegal immigrants felons Why you worried about the cops. They would actually have a real immigartoin law to inforce. And everything you listed is a felony for a citizen to do. __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

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