aeroripper

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/23/lat...rch/index.html

It seems like such a draconian measure in my opinion, and un-American at best. Thoughts?

leejo

I haven't read the law yet, but how do you define "un-American"? That seems to be a term up for much interpretation. Some on the right think it means you sorta keep your mouth shut about shouting down a sitting president during a war, for example.

aeroripper

Meaning that it could be used as a pretext for mass deportations and relocations (kind of like what happened to japanese americans in WWII, in my eyes that was an un-american thing to do). I'm not saying something doesn't need to be done about the issue, but I honestly don't think this is the right way. Also like they said at the end, if this passes, it will just go underground.

leejo

OK I've read the article. I don't have a problem with making being an illegal alien a criminal offense - that gives local jurisdictions the ability to enforce current law. I also don't have a problem with requiring employers to check on immigration status, although that sounds like a cottage industry and a drag on the economy.

Bottom line though is I don't care that much about how we deal with the current crowd. I want the borders secure.

Re your post just now....pretext for mass deportations and relocations? They shouldn't be here in the first place? There's no pretext required!

Trooper

well considering they are illegal i dont see any problem with it. I have no problem with immagration, those that come to our country to help and make it better, its healthy for the economy. But when they are running across the border to mooch, then thats where i have the problem.

source


yeah if thats just one state 5 years ago imagine what its costing that state now per year, with 4k per day running across the boarder.



Please dont get me started on the effects of illegal immagration on this country's economy.

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

xTYBALTx

I'd rather see an amnesty.

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A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

leejo

At the end of the day, I think that Canada, the United States, and Mexico will merge into one big free trade zone. Free trade erodes borders, pretty much by definition. As trade barriers erode, political barriers will erode too, and eventually you might as well call us one big happy country.

However, we have a little national security thing going on now, so we need them borders shut down pronto. Why we're still talking about this after all the coverage is beyond me. I only hope that *someone* is watching who comes into Mexico pretty carefully, since Mexicans aren't the real threat, it's people who are not Mexican crossing that border.

With regard to what illegal aliens cost the economy, I think you also have to factor in what Mexican labor saves. I don't disagree, I just think the numbers aren't as straight-forward as commonly portrayed, any more than I think that the Wal*Mart costs Ohio X million dollars in medicaid is a straight-forward number. You also have to consider what tax Wal*Mart pays Ohio annually, and whether or not those medicaid recipients were formerly holding down 6-figure jobs or on medicaid anyway...

Same thing here. Sure we support a lot of Mexican children in hospitals and schools, but we also get a lot of chaep labor, and if you're going to complain about the former you'd better account for the latter.

aeroripper

So what are the benefits of having 11 to 12 million less illegal immigrants? The jobs that americans don't want to work will come back? A lot of the culture in areas like california will dry up.

EDIT: You already answered this question.

Is it the bills goal to establish Fortress America where everyone has to have their papers or their deported or thrown in jail?

Trooper

Its not the fact that the cultures are gomna dry up, they shouldnt be in the area to begin with. We are not talking about removing any LEGAL immagrants, just those who run across the boarder to sit in welfare lines or even have anchor babys in the US.

And other thing to consider is the employees who hire illegals becuase they can pay under the table and not have to pay taxes on wages, so thats more money they get to pocket. Keeping those jobs legit is puting the money back into society and keeping things alive.

I just seen a story on the news a few weeks back where some southern western communities have all mexican people/illegals. Not saying some are legal but those that are illegal are taking jobs and those communties are collapsing and falling under.

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

leejo

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I think we could secure the border with a relatively modest investment using uavs and sensors with a beefed-up border patrol supported by, instead of hampered by, the beuracracy behind them.

With regard to the sort of society we'd have, I think it would be much like it was before there was this concerted assault on our society. I mean honestly dude, the Mexican government was printing maps recently. Money shipped back to Mexico from the US is a $20B industry - about 10% of their foreign trade numbers.

I'm not talking about stopping every brown man and demanding papers, but we have a serious problem. We have immigration laws, people in droves are violating those laws, and we ought to fix that. I don't think making statements that equate efforts to get a handle on the situation to gestapo tactics are accurate, helpful, or productive.

Trooper

I completely agree with you leejo. There are how many laws on the books that are just not enforced and its only hurting, well us. I feel bad for the boarder patrol officers who have to put up with all the beuracracy, and all the money they need to do anything isnt getting to them.

One more thing to think about is how many tons of drugs is brought into the US with these illegal. Im not saying all bring drugs but im certian a "few" do

where cing, he generally has some good info on this topic

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

ChIck3nL3gz

Awesome. I will support this bill 100%.

I want what my grandparents and their parents had.

Reopen Ellis Island.

You want in to this country? There's your passage. "Welcome to Ellis Island." Close the boarders.

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aeroripper

Well put, I read recently about the plan to erect high walls around the lean spots on the border, but complaints that this won't do much. A lot of the border patrol guys are recommending less of a "walled in" type border but a electronic one so they can respond a lot quicker to a breach in the line.

Lucky Shot

I don't understand. Why would an electronic border increase response time? Why wouldn't a giant obstruction prevent people from sneaking into the US? Wouldn't a big wall prevent us from having to respond to 95% of typical immigrants? Guess I am willing to have a monstrosity in the desert if that's a cheap way to get results. I still support the right to deport illegals. I don't want to put them in jail, we can't afford it. Send 'em home.

Lucky Shot

Trooper

What we need to start doing is sending a bill to the governments of these countries that we deport there own damn citizens back to, i say the cost of deportation +15% for "holding" cost.

I'm with lucky shot on this..I would rather see a 12' brick wall with razor wire running from Texas to Arizona to keep things clean, would be expensive in the beginning but worth millions in the long run.

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan