Bush shows his class - Page 3

Karkianman101 · 04-09-2006, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

This is getting off topic, but nobody gets a pass on unreasonably abusing other people. Just because some of your brother officers died on 9/11 doesn't give you the right to violate people's civil rights.

That said, I think I remember Kark bringing this up before and that he had only a few blogs as references to the abuses claimed.

I did bring it up, but I don't remember citing any blogs (maybe I just don't recognize them as such. I never read them myself). And the people who were protesting weren't the only ones arrested. There were also independant journalists, and people walking home with their groceries. It was long ago, but I managed to find it:

http://www.notinourname.net/rnc/pre-crime.htm
http://www.thememoryhole.org/policestate/pier57/
http://www.2600.com/rnc2004/index.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep19.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...sts/index.html

I had also sent my dad those links, and when in New York he asked a cab driver who verified the stories.

**leejo** · 04-09-2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

This is getting off topic, but nobody gets a pass on unreasonably abusing other people. Just because some of your brother officers died on 9/11 doesn't give you the right to violate people's civil rights.

That said, I think I remember Kark bringing this up before and that he had only a few blogs as references to the abuses claimed.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass, Cing. I'm waiting for hard evidence of the alleged abuse and suggesting that others do the same before spreading stories. I also think "unreasonable" has become subjective when it comes to how cops treat protestors in custody.

If cops broke the law, they should be punished, but I believe those peaceful protestors about as far as I can throw them.

Steeler · 04-09-2006, 10:41 AM

It was pretty widely reported in the local NY press that Bloomberg was, shall we say, overly aggressive in ordering the detention of street protesters. Very little you could prosecute as illegal - everything would fall under the "public safety" mandate. However, watching it go down on the news, this outside observer felt that the measures were rather draconian.

Several gathered crowds had the police advance on them even though they had not crossed the arbitrary lines of the "protest zone." When the police moved in, of course the lines broke, and they simply started arresting everyone they could get their hands on, even people on the sidewalk.

Bloomberg was widely criticized as being a thug of the Republican party in the local press. And in the end, the convention didn't actually produce a lot of new money for the city, because many of the attendees simply stayed in their hotels and didn't venture out into NY. A lot of people were actually very insulting to the city, coming in with a chip on their shoulder. "It's time someone came to New York and showed 'em how Real Americans do things," and that kinda crap.

Anyway, on topic. The President, on camera, didn't get angry with someone speaking their mind at one of his forums. Snide personal opinions of other politicians without factual basis aside, if that is the minimum requirement for "classy," then class is meaningless.

**USN_Squid** · 04-09-2006, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karkianman101

I did bring it up, but I don't remember citing any blogs (maybe I just don't recognize them as such. I never read them myself). And the people who were protesting weren't the only ones arrested. There were also independant journalists, and people walking home with their groceries. It was long ago, but I managed to find it:

http://www.notinourname.net/rnc/pre-crime.htm
http://www.thememoryhole.org/policestate/pier57/
http://www.2600.com/rnc2004/index.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Sep19.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...sts/index.html

I had also sent my dad those links, and when in New York he asked a cab driver who verified the stories.

Not in your name? The hacker quarterly? The CNN and WaPo links are broken. The Memory hole link does have some pictures which I guess are supposed to be shocking because there's barb wire in them, but they also state this was an old bus depot not a chemical warehouse or whatever you called it. But wait it was verified by a cabbie! Weak, very weak.

If it's all true are there any pending lawsuits? The ACLU would be all over this if there was a shred of truth to any of the abuses don't you think?

**CingularDuality** · 04-09-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karkianman101

I had also sent my dad those links, and when in New York he asked a cab driver who verified the stories.

LOL!

**CingularDuality** · 04-09-2006, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diceman

Hrm. I hadn't heard of this. Source?

Multiple times throughout his campaign. I'm not going to look up a source, as I heard it straight from Senator Kerry's mouth. If you don't believe me, I'm fine with that.

Diceman · 04-09-2006, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Multiple times throughout his campaign. I'm not going to look up a source, as I heard it straight from Senator Kerry's mouth. If you don't believe me, I'm fine with that.

Is there a cabbie I can talk to who will verify your story?

Kark, Azz: The lesson to be learnt here is clear - that your respective claims are true and you don't need to even try to provide sources. Anyone who doesn't believe you is obviously blinded by ideology.

**Trooper** · 04-09-2006, 02:42 PM

cings source: every single speech from Kerry's mouth.

Diceman · 04-09-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper[SNPR]

cings source: every single speech from Kerry's mouth.

Well now, I've seen a few of his speeches, so I know that's wrong. Please highlight the relevant section of the relevant speech for me.

**CingularDuality** · 04-09-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diceman

Is there a cabbie I can talk to you who will verify your story?

Kark, Azz: The lesson to learnt here is clear - that your respective claims are true and you don't need to even try to provide sources. Anyone who doesn't believe you is obviously blinded by ideology.

Right.

No, the point here is that you're asking me to source something that is/was common knowledge to anyone that followed the Presidential campaign. I'm not interested in sifting through pages and pages of websites looking for something to convince you. It's just not worth it. For the sake of this argument, I'll concede that Senator Kerry is the embodiment of class and that he's never kept anyone from speaking out against him at one of his speeches....

Talk about blinded by idealogy...

**Trooper** · 04-09-2006, 03:40 PM

how much did that hurt to say cing?

Apparently people dont respect those that take care of our country and are willing to put there rep on the line to do what is right for this country. Take social security, i dont want my kids or their kids to be dependant on a program that wasnt supposed to last 60 years, when its was supposed to last 10 at best. Or say a country where the people are publically and worldly abused my a dictator who could care less, Someone would do anything to keep his power, and he did. Or the illegal immagration problem in this country.

Diceman · 04-09-2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Right.

No, the point here is that you're asking me to source something that is/was common knowledge to anyone that followed the Presidential campaign. I'm not interested in sifting through pages and pages of websites looking for something to convince you. It's just not worth it. For the sake of this argument, I'll concede that Senator Kerry is the embodiment of class and that he's never kept anyone from speaking out against him at one of his speeches....

Talk about blinded by idealogy...

Negative. I've been asking for some evidence that Kerry has supressed dissenters in the same sense that Bush chose not too, at this particular town hall. Nobody has been able to provide it, "every speech ever made" and "it's common knowledge" aside. If the evidence is so easy to find, why hasn't it been posted yet?

For the record, I've not made nor implied the opposing "Kerry is faultless" claim that you seem to be conceding.

Apo asked quite rightly for some objective evidence on Azzman's position that allowing a dissenter to speak is the first classy thing that Bush has done. A good number of folks would call that position common knowledge, though that has been implicitly disallowed in this thread as a basis for argument.

So, if we're going to be sourcing our slander, then we'd be remiss to not expect that from everyone.

On the topic of Social Security, this web site seems to be a great explanation of how the whole system works. I'm no economist, so I can't vouch for its accuracy, but it makes sense. Watch the second movie down.

**Trooper** · 04-09-2006, 06:51 PM

I dont need to watch some video to tell me how SS works, i pay for it. Social Security was introduced in FDRs wonderful New Deal. The programs where only supposed to last as long as the depretion of the 1920's, but when it was over the governemtn decided to keep it because there was about a 21 to 1 ratio of people. 21 being the people paying into it and 1 being those recieveing. Today its less then a 2 to 1 ratio, same specs. 15 years from now it will be around a .75 to 1, you get my point.

Diceman · 04-09-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper[SNPR]

I dont need to watch some video to tell me how SS works, i pay for it.

That's your perogative.

**CingularDuality** · 04-09-2006, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diceman

If the evidence is so easy to find, why hasn't it been posted yet?

Because I'm not that interested in making this point?

04-09-2006, 10:41 AM	#33 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Bush shows his class It was pretty widely reported in the local NY press that Bloomberg was, shall we say, overly aggressive in ordering the detention of street protesters. Very little you could prosecute as illegal - everything would fall under the "public safety" mandate. However, watching it go down on the news, this outside observer felt that the measures were rather draconian. Several gathered crowds had the police advance on them even though they had not crossed the arbitrary lines of the "protest zone." When the police moved in, of course the lines broke, and they simply started arresting everyone they could get their hands on, even people on the sidewalk. Bloomberg was widely criticized as being a thug of the Republican party in the local press. And in the end, the convention didn't actually produce a lot of new money for the city, because many of the attendees simply stayed in their hotels and didn't venture out into NY. A lot of people were actually very insulting to the city, coming in with a chip on their shoulder. "It's time someone came to New York and showed 'em how Real Americans do things," and that kinda crap. Anyway, on topic. The President, on camera, didn't get angry with someone speaking their mind at one of his forums. Snide personal opinions of other politicians without factual basis aside, if that is the minimum requirement for "classy," then class is meaningless. __________________

04-09-2006, 02:42 PM	#38 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,894	Re: Bush shows his class cings source: every single speech from Kerry's mouth. __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

04-09-2006, 03:40 PM	#41 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,894	Re: Bush shows his class how much did that hurt to say cing? Apparently people dont respect those that take care of our country and are willing to put there rep on the line to do what is right for this country. Take social security, i dont want my kids or their kids to be dependant on a program that wasnt supposed to last 60 years, when its was supposed to last 10 at best. Or say a country where the people are publically and worldly abused my a dictator who could care less, Someone would do anything to keep his power, and he did. Or the illegal immagration problem in this country. __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

04-09-2006, 06:51 PM	#43 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,894	Re: Bush shows his class I dont need to watch some video to tell me how SS works, i pay for it. Social Security was introduced in FDRs wonderful New Deal. The programs where only supposed to last as long as the depretion of the 1920's, but when it was over the governemtn decided to keep it because there was about a 21 to 1 ratio of people. 21 being the people paying into it and 1 being those recieveing. Today its less then a 2 to 1 ratio, same specs. 15 years from now it will be around a .75 to 1, you get my point. __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

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