Apophis

Just to balance things out, lets get some info out here on what went on during the Democratic National Convention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_De...nal_Convention

Notable Quotes:

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Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

AMosely

A little late getting in on this thread but I'll chime in my .02 anyway.

I don't see why this surprises anyone. More than half the country is dissatisfied with Bush for one reason or another. Many speculate that he doesn't care about this, but I'm sure he does. Even if he doesn't, he is at least aware of it. If I had to guess, this is one of the main reasons he's even doing 'town hall' meetings at all - to try and re-engage the public. I'm sure he's expecting some flak, and he knows how to respond. I personally don't care for most of Bush's beliefs, policy initiatives and appointments, but I do not think he's a bad person, and I am fairly certain that he is a gracious and 'classy' person. That's why this doesn't really surprise me - either that he was heckled like this or that he responded graciously. I think he's just out there trying to do his job.

Do any of you actually think a President (or hopeful) would consider having contempt for their audience in this day and age? No way.

USN_Squid

No, no I'm not saying it didn't happen. Of course I read the news man. What I dispute is A) that they didn't deserve to be arrested and B) that they were treated anything but fairly given the circumstances.

I've read all your links now and haven't changed my mind. Most of the charges were dismissed which is very common in protests. The guy making the claims of "guantanamo on the hudson" and complaining about chemicals, etc is the attorney for many of the defendants.

Anyway, I'd like to see an example of Bush not being a mostly gracious and nice guy....for a Texan. There is one video of him playfully giving the camera the bird a decade ago or so. Of course it's my perception but it seems to me he has shown great integrity with his personal behavior especially considering everything that's being thrown at him from politicians and protestors.

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Karkianman101

One reason why I'm not a Democrat, though I will say that a "Free Speech" zone isn't too much of a stretch from needing a permit to protest.
The thing is that reputable articles are on flimsy ground quoting blogs, yet blogs are the main source of personal accounts. The police chief denying the charges also presents possible bias, as he wants to keep his job, along with the seeking of revenge and law suits by those arrested, along with the lawyer attempting to win his case. Bias is everywhere in this issue, as is the slippery slope of credibility. So I find myself at the conclusion that there has to be some element of truth in both extremes. I doubt there was asbestos at the warehouse, but I wouldn't be surprised if the lawyer had a surprising amount of truth behind his rhetoric.

Anyway, sorry to all if I've come off as a bit snappy(ish). Stress IRL and all that

Diceman

Why should I spend my time hunting down sources to validate your point? Asking for news reports from credible sources is not an impingment of your personal credibility. I had in mind submissions from WorldNetDaily, or Powerline as being the kind that I wanted to avoid. My asking for other sources is because everything we see, hear and say is tainted by our bias (even if you think you're unbiased). If Kerry really did shut down dissent at a speech, then surely others saw it. I'm not denying that he shut down dissent - if fact, I'd be mighty surprised if he's never done so - but that is entirely beside the point. Analogously to white light being composed of coloured light, my point is that truth more likely comes from a multiplicity of sources than one guy, even if you're the guy.

You know, for a guy who has admonished others about claiming to know what goes on in another's head, that is a pretty far reaching statement.

I don't think anyone here considers themselves to be lemmings for anything. Let's take a straw poll: all lemmings, please post a note here saying so. Anyone? Ok, so if no one considers themselves to be a lemming and yet there are obviously lemmings out there - what gives your "not-a-lemming" claim any veracity whatsoever? How can you claim that most everyone else is swimming in bias, and you're just too clever to fall into that trap?

I agree completely. I also think that everyone in here is trying to think for themselves. These discussions are not between lemmings and fanatics, but between more or less reasonable people. I think our differences of opinion have, in the large, been come by honestly, as opposed to anybody toeing the party line.

To provide an example: I don't suppose that leejo or Cing are ever terribly surprised when I post something which runs contrary to their position. But I would hope that I also have enough credibility built with both of them for them to give me the benefit of the doubt. For my part, I use rhetoric in my posts, but I always try to provide a grounding in reason. I expect no more from my opponents.

Speaking personally, I know I am far more willing to have a conversation with those two (because we can, to a point, relate our positions to each other) as opposed to some other posters, but even this is much more a communication issue than my writing off their ability to form a coherent thought.

As for the original posts which got all this "show me a source" talk started, can you not see that Troopers conjecture is no more solid than Azzman's? I think the lack of evidence posted bears that idea out nicely. I don't think I'm being nit-picky by asking for those sources either.

As Cing says: If you don't believe me, I'm fine with that.

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[drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
[ma-c2][taw-c1]

Rincewind

I know a lot of foreigners who know more about American politics and America in general than the majority of our countrymen. The United States is very well studied, just not by Americans... OKay, topic can commence

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~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

<---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

Trooper

Yes and i also know alot of foreingers who take michael moore as a crediable source. But hey i dont judge....well for the michael moore thing i do but what ever

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

Apophis

Likewise, I don't feel the need to spend time trying to find some media-produced article stating something that I saw first-hand. Yes, there are other people who have seen it including Cingular. I'm sure a number of others have seen it too if they were paying attention. It just doesn't seem as though you want to acknowledge that it happened unless someone can find it on CNN.COM or in the New York Times.

I also don't feel that you need to be biased in either direction to see person A shut down person B and now allow person B to speak because they have a differing viewpoint.

My reason for being offended is that you dismissed both Cingular and my first-hand observations and called for a "credible" source. That is implying that neither Cingular or I are credible.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

Diceman

I apologize for any offense. That was not my intention. I do try to take what you guys say at face value.

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Steeler

To be fair, Apophis, Cing said:
That sounds like a generalization, and not an account of a specific time that he saw Kerry do that. I don't think you can blame Diceman for asking for some specifics on that one. I would have assumed it was just generalizing as well. Certainly our impressions of a candidate are our own business and carry whatever merit in the minds of others as they assign to them - they have no quantitative measure of authority. However, I'm sure most people on this forum, had you said "I saw John Kerry speak and my impression was..." - would take your commentary very seriously. But that's not what made it onto the thread.

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TychoCelchuuu

And I know a lot of Americans who take Michel Moore as a credible source. Stupidity is universal, and lots of people in other countries DO know more about our political systems and our history than we do, since their education system is better at that. I think in most cases people on this website are definitely going to be better educated than foreigners, but I'm talking about the average American.

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|TG-Irr|TychoCelchuuu

Apophis

And then Diceman asked for a source, to which Cing replied:

Your move.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

Apophis

Understood. I apologize for any offense I may have caused as well.

On with the show!

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Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

Steeler

Don't be like that...

We go back and forth on this, one guy says this thing happens all the time. Another guy asks when. The one guy says I don't remember, but it did, I saw it. The other guys says that's pretty thin. The first guys says, well I don't have to prove it to you.

I'm just saying that you guys are quibbling when you don't have to.

In short....

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Apophis

I only said it in jest, with a big smile on my face. More poking fun at this whole process than anything else.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.