Tossing Myself into the Fire - Page 6

**DigitalAssassin** · 04-21-2006, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Then you'd either by lying or giving credit for some mudane event (winning the lotto, winning a basketball game, surviving a wreck) to God.

That's a pretty strong accusation. What would my goal be by lying? I can't force anyone to make my beliefs their beliefs to begin. All I can do is explain what I believe and why. On a side note, the God I believe in is a God of free-will so don't think I'm attacking you presonally. In the same way I have a right to believe what I do, you have every right to believe what you do. I simply choose to believe differently then you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFenix

I can only assume you're talking about modern day "miracles:" What makes you qualified to assume mundane "miracles" are the work of God?

No, I mean archaelogical evidence and other evidence that that leans more toward scientific then 'miraculous'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFenix

When it comes to God they are.

Why is that? Why can't they co-exist? Many of the findings of science are so complex they almost (notice I didn't say DO) require an intelligent creator of some type (whether it's the God I believe in or whatever higher power you believe in) and if science just found these things it couldn't have created them really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFenix

There is no scientific evidence that God exists.

Again, be careful here. Just because science doesn't have evidence of God doesn't mean He doesn't exist. There are plenty of things that not that many years ago science didn't even know about (sub-atomic particles for example) that they now know exist and have always existed. Just because science couldn't prove their existence initially doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFenix

There's the key difference: Religious people already have the answers they want. And they'll defend those answers through any means necessary.

Not necessarily. Some of the tenants of Christian belief aren't the easiest things to live within. If I was going to 'invent' a religion I would likely make it mold itself to my lifestyle as opposed to making the choice to mold my lifestyle to it, which requires a lot more effort.

Having said all of that, Mateo sums it up beautifully...

"It's better to simply say: "I believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that he rose from the dead and ascended to his rightful place at his father's side. I can't witness any of that, so I take it as an article of faith.'"

I choose to have faith in the resurrection and therefore I choose to have faith in every other biblical event.

**Rincewind** · 04-21-2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

The original poster? That sounds so cold and distant. The guy's got a name.

We shall call him, TROLL.

**TheFeniX** · 04-21-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diceman

If you don't see that any discussion regarding the existence of God is a philosophical discussion, then I have no points to make and nothing to add to this thread. I guess I could just ignore you, and that sounds like an appealing option as well.

Are you going to keep on about this: or are you going to respond to my other points?

Quote:

Some say something came from nothing, others say that there was some extra-universal cause. We don't know.) Lastly, we believe in logic and reason. This is the trickiest one to affirm; after all, how do we know that logic is true? We can't use logic to deduce its own existence, that would be one of the more basic fallacies. But without logic, we have only intuition and/or faith (incidentally, this argument also handily defeats mathematics from any claim of necessary truth, beyond the definitional one presented above).

2 + 2 = 4 is a logical conclusion. Observe that if you take 2 objects (pencils for example) and add two more pencils: you have 4 pencils. Use your little theory here to prove this equation false.

Quote:

As a closing thought, this post indirectly relates to a post made by leejo in another thread, postulating that people are foudational illogical. I recognize (what I hold to be) certain truths in that claim, but simultaneously think that my reasoning above shows that people are foundationally logical. Perhaps the truth is something harder to understand - that we are foundationally logical and illogical at the same time. Superpostion is possible in Quantum Mechanics, why not with the self?

Red Herring: we aren't discussing if people are born logical or illogical.

There, I answered your last two points: you care to answer all of mine?

**TheFeniX** · 04-21-2006, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigitalAssassin

That's a pretty strong accusation. What would my goal be by lying? I can't force anyone to make my beliefs their beliefs to begin. All I can do is explain what I believe and why. On a side note, the God I believe in is a God of free-will so don't think I'm attacking you presonally. In the same way I have a right to believe what I do, you have every right to believe what you do. I simply choose to believe differently then you do.

Fine, then post your "evidence" of God's existance.

Quote:

No, I mean archaelogical evidence and other evidence that that leans more toward scientific then 'miraculous'.

Let's see them.

Quote:

Why is that? Why can't they co-exist? Many of the findings of science are so complex they almost (notice I didn't say DO) require an intelligent creator of some type (whether it's the God I believe in or whatever higher power you believe in) and if science just found these things it couldn't have created them really.

No they don't. God isn't needed in the equation of life, and that's where the debate is.

Quote:

Again, be careful here. Just because science doesn't have evidence of God doesn't mean He doesn't exist. There are plenty of things that not that many years ago science didn't even know about (sub-atomic particles for example) that they now know exist and have always existed. Just because science didn't know about them initially doesn't mean they don't exist.

We've known about God for... how long? And he chooses to make himself invisible to us. This isn't like we're searching for one particle in the entirety of the universe. This is about a God who (by the bible) not 3000 years ago, played an active hand in human affairs, killed thousands (if not millions), and destroyed the earth with a flood. Yet we see no evidence of any of these deeds he's done, except for one book (which is more like fiction than anything). It's a little different than finally devloping a microscope than can see even smaller objects.

Quote:

Not necessarily. Some of the tenants of Christian belief aren't the easiest things to live within. If I was going to 'invent' a religion I would likely make it mold itself to my lifestyle as opposed to making the choice to mold my lifestyle to it, which requires a lot more effort.

Wait, you admit you can invent a religion and a God? I agree with you there.

**Wyzcrak** · 04-21-2006, 03:29 PM

Hostility and sarcasm on Page 5.

I'm out.

**Apophis** · 04-21-2006, 03:31 PM

Yup. The hostility and sarcasm just brought what was a great conversation to a grinding halt.

**DigitalAssassin** · 04-21-2006, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Fine, then post your "evidence" of God's existance.

I can post things but as a 'logical' being why wouldn't you want to take the time to read them yourself? I can post things but because of your beliefs you will discredit them one way or another, so I won't waste your time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Let's see them.

Like above, if you are willing to have an open mind or at least research so you have more information I can get specific.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFenix

No they don't. God isn't needed in the equation of life, and that's where the debate is./QUOTE]

So what IS needed in the equation of life? In the same way my beliefs are probably illogical to you, how likely is it that life just randomly occurred and that all the millions of things that are specific to humans, for example, just happened to fall together?

QUOTE[=TheFenix] We've known about God for... how long? And he chooses to make himself invisible to us. This isn't like we're searching for one particle in the entirety of the universe. This is about a God who (by the bible) not 3000 years ago, played an active hand in human affairs, killed thousands (if not millions), and destroyed the earth with a flood. Yet we see no evidence of any of these deeds he's done, except for one book (which is more like fiction than anything). It's a little different than finally devloping a microscope than can see even smaller objects.

I won't argue, God does choose to make himself invisible, for a reason(s) I wouldn't even comprehend. My belief is he DOES reveal his presence many ways. In my opinion it isn't really different from a scientific discovery because prior to that discovery people either hadn't ever really thought about what was found or said 'X doesn't exist' and then eventually found out, 'X does exist', we just didn't realize it back then or we chose to deny it because we didn't understand it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFenix

Wait, you admit you can invent a religion and a God? I agree with you there.

In the same way you can deny that belief and God, yes.

We can talk semantics here all day and neither of us will change our beliefs. I used to believe as you do so I respect what you are saying. Going back to the original topic, what I was questioning was what qualified the original poster to post what he did.

This thread has devolved into something I hoped it wouldn't. I've made it very clear in my posts that I choose to believe what I believe. No one else has to believe it and the worst way to ask someone to have an open mind about things is to attack them.

Sorry if I contributed to any of the hostility or sarcasm.

Diceman · 04-21-2006, 03:47 PM

Alright, let's have a look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

2 + 2 = 4 is a logical conclusion.

Looks more like a premise to me. I suppose it is the conclusion of:

Premise stating that addition exists.
Premise stating that equality exists.
If 1 exists, then 1+1 = 2.
If 2 exists, then 2 + 2 = 4.
1 exists.

therefore
2 + 2 = 4.

but you must have someone accept the validity of addition, equality and 1 for anything to follow. How does one make an argument for these concepts that seem to be so basic, other than to simply say that they are. How is this different from an argument for God, wherein people begin with the claim "God exists"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Observe that if you take 2 objects (pencils for example) and add two more pencils: you have 4 pencils. Use your little theory here to prove this equation false.

I hope I've expressed clearly that mathematics is not based on observation. Otherwise, please show me a fraction, using rocks. What is half of a rock?

Hint: you can't. Fractions are an abstraction, just like the Natural Numbers. None of it exists, in the same sense that I exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Red Herring: we aren't discussing if people are born logical or illogical.

Well, you're right that the Original Poster didn't start a discussion on logic superficially. But he got called on his use of the term "facts", which are instantiations of knowledge. Epistemology is the study of knowledge through the application of logic. Since logic and knowledge are so deeply intertwined, it is only a short series of short steps before what I've said is right on topic.

More on topic than where the Sandbox thread has ended up at least, and certainly within the realm of relevant discussion.

**Trooper** · 04-21-2006, 04:08 PM

I hate these kind of threads, cause there are 2 kinds of people : religious/believers and those who dont want anything to do with it and try to put it down in ever reply. Im a believer, everything i have my place in life is based on my beliefs, faith. Takes a lot of heart and logic to believe faith, cause until you have that you are never gonna see Who GOD truly is. Im sure many are familiar with CS Lewis, he was a writer/atheist that tried for years to disprove GODs existence. When he was finished with those aspirations, he had a complete change of heart and became one of the greatest christian writers of all time. He gave up because it was easier to prove GOD existed then to disprove him.

Some people just aren't willing to open their minds to such things, once you do its amazing to see what can happen.

Steeler · 04-21-2006, 04:21 PM

Once a discussion degenerates to this level there's not much left to do. Arguing against someone's faith (faith in God, faith in logic, faith in Star Wars, etc.) is arguing against that person's identity. You are not going to convince someone that they are not themselves.

**Apophis** · 04-21-2006, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Once a discussion degenerates to this level there's not much left to do. Arguing against someone's faith (faith in God, faith in logic, faith in Star Wars, etc.) is arguing against that person's identity. You are not going to convince someone that they are not themselves.

Well put. When people DO try arguing against a person's identity, it usually results in one party being offended or feeling as though they are being attacked. When you are arguing against a person's identity and throw hostility and sarcasm into it, it only makes it worse.

Diceman · 04-21-2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Once a discussion degenerates to this level there's not much left to do. Arguing against someone's faith (faith in God, faith in logic, faith in Star Wars, etc.) is arguing against that person's identity. You are not going to convince someone that they are not themselves.

Nicely said. For my part, I apologize to all for my own words in degenerating this discussion. I should have known better.

Sheesh, two apologies in as many weeks. I must be becoming a bitter, bitter man.

icky · 04-21-2006, 04:33 PM

I feel the same way when someone disputes a person's food preferences. I mean how could anyone dislike brussel sprouts?

Obi · 04-21-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icky

I feel the same way when someone disputes a person's food preferences. I mean how could anyone dislike brussel sprouts?

You ever tried them with warm double-cream? It's the best.

**Pokerface** · 04-21-2006, 04:36 PM

I don't know what all the hubub is about Jesus. I mean, the whole thing was answered in Gabriel Knight 3.

/me brings it back to gaming!

04-21-2006, 03:29 PM	#80 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: Tossing Myself into the Fire Hostility and sarcasm on Page 5. I'm out. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

04-21-2006, 03:31 PM	#81 (permalink)
Apophis Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Rhode Island, USA Age: 36 Posts: 8,993	Re: Tossing Myself into the Fire Yup. The hostility and sarcasm just brought what was a great conversation to a grinding halt. __________________ Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

04-21-2006, 04:08 PM	#84 (permalink)
Trooper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In my wifes house......if she says i can Age: 25 Posts: 8,894	Re: Tossing Myself into the Fire I hate these kind of threads, cause there are 2 kinds of people : religious/believers and those who dont want anything to do with it and try to put it down in ever reply. Im a believer, everything i have my place in life is based on my beliefs, faith. Takes a lot of heart and logic to believe faith, cause until you have that you are never gonna see Who GOD truly is. Im sure many are familiar with CS Lewis, he was a writer/atheist that tried for years to disprove GODs existence. When he was finished with those aspirations, he had a complete change of heart and became one of the greatest christian writers of all time. He gave up because it was easier to prove GOD existed then to disprove him. Some people just aren't willing to open their minds to such things, once you do its amazing to see what can happen. __________________ that sounds like a good idea trooper. -Vulcan

04-21-2006, 04:21 PM	#85 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Tossing Myself into the Fire Once a discussion degenerates to this level there's not much left to do. Arguing against someone's faith (faith in God, faith in logic, faith in Star Wars, etc.) is arguing against that person's identity. You are not going to convince someone that they are not themselves. __________________

04-21-2006, 04:33 PM	#88 (permalink)
icky Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ottawa Valley Posts: 6,154	Re: Tossing Myself into the Fire I feel the same way when someone disputes a person's food preferences. I mean how could anyone dislike brussel sprouts? __________________ Peace through fear... since 1947!

04-21-2006, 04:36 PM	#90 (permalink)
Pokerface Join Date: May 2003 Location: MD, USA Age: 30 Posts: 5,787	Re: Tossing Myself into the Fire I don't know what all the hubub is about Jesus. I mean, the whole thing was answered in Gabriel Knight 3. /me brings it back to gaming! __________________ NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues. Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality. <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

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