Buck Fush

Wait, you mean leejo != Cing? I'm confused, from reading their posts I thought they were they same person.

Chewy

Pornography has definitely lessened the value of what sex was originally intended for: an act of love between a man and a woman (especially a husband and wife). It's sad to see something that truly is so wonderful be degraded because of pornography.

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leejo

I disagree with that Chewy, and I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that sex was originially intended as an act of love. I'd betcha a nickle that sex was originally intended for exchanging dna to make a zygote. IMO the funkier the better. Put a little Barry White on, huff a little freon, turn on the strobe light, whatever. What you call degraded I call "hell yeah!", and my wife seems to agree, so...

xTYBALTx

LOL! QFT.

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A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

Adrielle

Vegas? tehhhhhh what?



My dad is "crim" on the WoW side of things. He doesn't come out of the WoW cave, ... lots of the WoW kids are like that. You guys must think we're freaks. We're not freaks ... :C

There are some WoW people who play in the Sandbox. Just not many. Please don't think we're the equivalent of the lonely goth-emo kids of TG. :P

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Zephyr

Well I'm very happy for you, because if you are thinking of Barry White and strobe lights as "degraded" then you obviously haven't come to understand what "degraded" means in Internet porn. That is good though, you aren't corrupted and should remain the way you are.

Sex was never intended as an act of love at the molecular level of course, but our conscience and reasoning abilities as human beings transformed it into our cliche "making love". However I would much rather have the cliche than the degraded mess that is modern pornography.

NECCESSARY ANALOGY
Would you rather have an infinite amount of varied servers for a game where you could say anything, do anything, and fight anyone regardless of the common goal or any sort of higher moral standards, or would you rather have TG? You could say that TG is a freak of sorts and too strict to be really enjoyable, however the temptation of going to a public server and wrecking unrestricted havoc...quickly wears off when you actually go and do it. Then you realize that everyone else is doing it too, and you struggle to find some sort of TG mentality among whoever you can find so that you may feel that bond of togetherness and common goal. You end up finding the game no fun at all because everyone is too busy being ruthless and cruel, it is quickly uninstalled and shelved without TG.

-Zephyr

__________________
You were once like the newbie who needed a hand from above and TacticalGamer gave you it.

You owe the newbie who comes after you that same outstretched hand from above on your honor as a Tactical Gamer.

Tactics at TG come from trust and friendship, not meticulous detail and rigid discipline.

Everyone should be assumed mature until proven otherwise.

We are no clan.
We are not a single game.
We are mature, intelligent, and cooperative individuals.
We are TacticalGamer, a community above and beyond its name.

xTYBALTx

Wow. Ruthless and cruel? What?

Live and let live man, live and let live.

__________________
A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

IceCold

Yeah, that was pretty much out of left field.

Seems to me that every generation thinks that the next generation is going to take society to hell in a handbasket. Like it or not, morals change. Heck, at one time it was considered immoral for women to wear pants. Anyone here still think that's a sign that a woman is a hussy?

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Zephyr

Of course not, but if you saw a girl in a 1920's typical daily outfit and a 2000's girl in a typical daily outfit, who would you sooner call a "hussy"? I'm not saying that the 2000's girl is a "hussy", but the showing of more sexual traits would lead you to that thought. Then if you had to choose between them, who would you choose? Not that it is the 2000's girl's fault, but she will probably be more open to sexual activity than the 1920's girl. Both a 1920's man and a 2000's man, if told there were no reprecussions, would (in my opinion based on books read on the traits and power of the male sex drive, which I could quote if you want) choose the 2000's girl. The 1920's man would have a harder time than the 2000's man because his morals would be more numerous, however sexual temptation, being the ultimate form of temptation, and a perfect situation of "no strings attached" would leave no man able to control himself.

Morals have fallen over the last century at an alarming rate. Alongside these declining morals are tremendous achievements in freedom of expression; I would by no means say that nothing good has come of this growing sense of being able to do whatever you want. However what would men want especially in this brave new world of freedom? Sex. Every communication medium that has come into existence has been quickly commendeered to serve the male's overwhelming desire for sexual experiences. Written Erotica, Howard Stern, Hentai, Playboy, Playboy TV, and Playboy Online are perfect examples of how no popular medium is excluded. Oh yeah and by the way, Cell phones are no exception too. What has happened because of the proliferation is that people are simply getting bored of basic sex and end up going into more and more hardcore material in order to find some sort of arousal. If corporations had enough morals to keep these things out of the public eye, maybe we wouldn't have to worry about porn destroying sex. However, corporations seem far more interested in making a profit today than upholding the morals of yesteryear.

Rince, you're right to postulate that it is improbable that sex was "better" in the past. However, I would disagree with you that sex is valued the same as it is today. Today sex is getting more and more closer to the "glass of water" of Kollontai, though yes she is disputed heavily as to her own opinion on the frequent use of that statement. Yes, people were promiscuous back in the old days too, but since the promiscuity was kept far more between the people's engaging in it, people felt like they had something special that no one else could get in to. Now that sex is everywhere and everyone knows everyone else is doing it, everyone feels that if they aren't doing it or proclaiming their skill at it, they must be bad at it. Thus they go into sex thinking that they should be able to last for 120 minutes, like the guy in the porno flick, and obviously make the girl climax because that always happens if you are good. There at least we agree that porn is destructive to the sexual self-esteem of individuals. I am particularly thinking of men in this case, I might add.

I would go the additional step and say that with the dissolving of sexual self-esteem comes the dissolving of societal self-esteem, since our societal self-esteem is coming closer every day to sexual self-esteem. By measuring our own worth as human beings in terms of our sexual performance, on a scale heightened unrealistically by pornography, so many people find themselves inadequate that they choose to recess into asexuality for the sake of achieving peace of mind. This is the curse of pornography when applied to a morally void society. Affirming sexual skill and/or experience is now what is more critical when two people get together to "do it". Actually "making love" with someone who cares about you deeply is pretty much optional. Sex had a different meaning back when morals restricted people, sex was a meaningful and special engagement of lovers that was the result of a arduous process of courtship. Now sex is the first thing on a persons mind, as opposed to finding someone who one enjoys being with, and it often happens first and any sort of relationship appears later. People now view sex as a "skill" rather than the highest plateau of a relationship. I'll have it be the highest plateau of my relationship, not a "skill" like it is some sort of competative sport that I'm losing/winning at, even if that is a backwards moral that I find less and less men, but thankfully some women, believing in.
-Zephyr

__________________
You were once like the newbie who needed a hand from above and TacticalGamer gave you it.

You owe the newbie who comes after you that same outstretched hand from above on your honor as a Tactical Gamer.

Tactics at TG come from trust and friendship, not meticulous detail and rigid discipline.

Everyone should be assumed mature until proven otherwise.

We are no clan.
We are not a single game.
We are mature, intelligent, and cooperative individuals.
We are TacticalGamer, a community above and beyond its name.

Rincewind

*raises hand*




I think, Zeph & Chewy, it is just a matter of opinion. I will definitely agree that there is some far out porn available on the internet. Everything is out there; there is something for everyone and not everything out there is going to be enjoyable to everyone. Some of it is degrading just for the sake of being degrading (some people like that apparently). Some of it is polish, shine, and plastic with a healthy application of sanitizer. You know, the stuff porn stars do. Some of it leejo posted and we will never get the images out of our tortured minds.

Ultimately, how pornography--however a person defines it--affects sex is up to that person. I think the only sex people should be concerned about is the sex between them and their partners. And how that interaction plays out, my friends, is controlled by the folks participating. And be glad that you live in modern times because this ability to engage in the sexual acts that are enjoyable to you (regardless of gender/gender preferences) rarely crops up in the history of cultures.

You may be surprised to know that some people place no value on passionate, love-filled sex. You may be even more surprised if I told you those people may have been your Puritan, great-great grandparents. Or maybe not. How ‘valuable’ was the sex they had? Is being separated by a curtain with a hole in it while copulating emotionally fulfilling for the people involved? Did they mean for it to be? Heck, that process was designed to take the emotional fulfillment out of it so my guess would be, no. These were morality-bound people too (literally).

Where I’m going with this is that even before California was vomiting out copious amounts of pornography there were people (egad, cultures!) who regularly engaged in unfulfilling, underwhelming sex. And they probably hated it. And it wasn’t because of ‘evil porn’.

I think pornography is often a scapegoat for some bad decisions people have made in their (legal and consentual!!!) sexual actions. Some people make a lot of bad decisions before making the right one. Some people have bad experiences while testing their boundaries. Some people find something they like the first time and stick with it...

Nowadays sex is as sacred as the people involved want it to be. It's their individual perceptions and decisions that matter. It’s how they bring it to the table… or bed. If someone thinks pornography is negatively altering their enjoyment or perception of sex, then I think it's their responsibility to fix it for themselves. Ask yourself, "is pornography negatively affecting my relationships or day-to-day life?" If 'no' then ask, "How has viewing pornography affected me?" Just by the nature of watching it, you have been affected by it. Just think on it a bit. How has it or has it not shaped your experiences? Not a lot of people try to consciously analyze what they experience. But by mentally scrutinizing what you’ve watched you can begin to understand how you’ve processed and applied what you’ve viewed. And then, you can partially shape how it affects your life. And this might be a good thing if you believe pornography has lessened the value you place on sex.

Now, if you wanted to argue about the virtues (or lack thereof) of the pornography industry…that’s a whole other thread…and I think that if the majority of anti porn people were to attack the methods of the pron industry rather than the product, they’d get a larger listening audience.

In short: sex isn’t undervalued or diminished because society (or porn) has diminished it, its value is set by your perception of it alone. And the fact that this value is a personal decision and not a dictated decision is a merciful virtue of living in a free society.

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~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

<---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

Chewy

well thanks for sharing YOUR opinion! Everyone is entitled to be wrong, so we won't fault you for that. If you (anyone) think that the porn industry hasn't helped lead to the higher amounts of rapes and sexual assualts, you are purely kidding yourself... without getting into detail and to keep it simple for those of you who need it simple, as porn has grown, so to have the sex related crimes... there are countless cases of men (and women, though to a lesser extent) who openly admitted that their crime was originally started from an obsession or over indulgance of porn or porn related materials... to argue the fact that the criminals themselves have admitted will only show your ignorance on the subject.

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Rincewind

It truly is up to you to define how the evolution of morality in human cultures has progressed. But it's not cliche when I say that 100 years ago, folks were writing that the morality of the time had sharply declined from the previous century. There were also folks quite happy with the changes in the moral code of society. Freedom of expression is not tied to a fading moral fiber. Freedom of expression is not the sense of being able to do whatever you want. The implications of your statement is chilling.

I guess I answered that above. I would flippantly add that according to the article in the OP that sex is apparently much more valued today than it has ever been in the past. And that may be part of the problem. Some people are just obsessed with sex. I mean, really freaky obsessed...

Really? How promiscuous are people today? How promiscuous were they 300, 500, 2000 years ago? (Rhetorical question )

My sex life is pretty private and it's really special to me. People know I have sex (my progeny gave it away...). I know other people have sex. And porn didn't enlighten me. I could care less how other people perceive my sexuality. And I could care less about other peoples sex. Hey, I may gossip, but their perfomance doesn't really matter to me.

be careful throwing around 'every*.*' I realize you're passionate about how you feel, but generalizing like this isn't even remotely accurate. Sex isn't everywhere, and not everyone is as obsessive about it as you seem to think they are. For teen's that may be a different story... There is real pressure on teens to have sex. This pressure is biological. But I would not dismiss the role of media (books, tv, etc.) in heightening the hype surrounding sex. We may agree this hype is not entirely porns fault?

I really do agree with you here. But maybe I'm old enough (ha ha!) to realize that porn is a reflection of fantasies. It ain't reality. And with experience people learn that. Or they should. I did If not, people shouldn't be so hard on themselves if they dont measure up to the performers on the big screen. Our modern society has taught us to measure our individual ability by the fantastic (and unrealistic) performances in our fictional media. This isn't just happening to sex it's happening to almost every facet of our society. I think the awareness of the problem goes a long way to deconstructing the paradigm and thankfully, not everyone bought into it to begin with.

I have a real hard time seeing where you're coming from on this.. Good sex is graded by the people involved. It's not a social construct. Yeah, sometimes sex sucks, but if your in a good relationship the post coital communication generally provides a consensus on the performance. God forbid you get a, "damn that was good," or a "I love how you make love to me." If your getting good feedback, how one earth could you feel bad about how you did? Why would you even bother comparing your performance to fantasy sex? To other peaoples sex? Why would I care if you do? I just don't understand. If you have a post game talk and find out you fell of the horse, what do you do?

Like I said, some people are obsessed with sex. I do not doubt that some people are giving up sex for this reason. I mean, Richard Simmons did it, right? But I don' think these people say, "I gave up on sex because it could never really live up to what I see in porn." There has got to be some other factors involved. Those may be societal, but I have a feeling they have a lot more to do with the relationships people are in and their own perceptions of their sexuality than it does with how porn has killed peoples sex drive.

I respect your opinion here. Of course I disagree with some of your generalizations. Our society is not void of morals; LOTS of people still 'make love' and get into deeply committed relationships--I'm one of 'em; Every guy does not have an unhealthy view of sex because porn warped their morals; courtship is not arduous; sex is not the first thing on my mind; and not all pornography is bad (some of it is disturbing...). I wont tell anyone where to place sex in their relationships and I wont judge people by where they do place it in their relationships. Like I said before, it's their business and their choice. Ultimately, it's up to the individual to choose what works out for them.

__________________
~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

<---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

Rincewind

Well, the topic wasn't about porn and criminalty, but rather porn killing sex... so I added an edit to the above+1 post.

__________________
~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

<---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

xTYBALTx

Zephyr,

What you call morality I call puritanilcal nihilism. What you call immorality I consider virtuous. If you're going to convince me of anything, you'll have to start there.

Me? I know that I won't succeed in convincing you that your so-called morality is actually immoral. Which is why I'd rather focus on the importance of tolerance.

__________________
A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

SmokingTarpan

This is a really bad argument to use, as these people were broken before the case. I'm more than willing to bet that these criminals had fantasies about rape well before they got hooked on porn. It's like trying to argue that a guy killed someone because he watched murder movies and played violent video games. The fact that far more people can watch these things and not commit the related acts of crime/violence rather discredits the opinion that the materials are the cause of a problem. They may aid in the rape problem becoming bigger, but no more so than a knife aids the problem of the desire to commit murder.

Causes are broken switches in the head, not what can be seen in a video.

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[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo