Adrielle

I watched the video from the original thread. I won't make my comments about it specifically because I'd be opening up the same can of worms that got closed in the first place, and, that ain't cool. If you want to know my opinion about it, pm me, I'll be glad to share.

Whatever happened to pepper spray? Is that not used anymore?

Oh, and while looking back through this thread I saw "LEO" a bunch of times before I finally realized that it stood for. Is it disrespectful that I was saying "cops"? ... Please excuse my ignorance I just wanted to play in the Sandbox with the other cool kids. :x Seriously, please tell me if "LEO" is a more proper way.

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CingularDuality

The paperwork that comes with firing a Taser will depend on the agency. I think that most of the time it's just another paragraph to include in the narrative of a police report. The important thing is the accountability. If Joe Citizen claims that he was hosed down with pepper spray yesterday by Officer Tackleberry, how can it be proven? If he says he was shot with a Taser yesterday, Officer Tackleberry either has some explaining to do or he's instantly able to prove that Joe Citizen is a liar.

As to the comparison between the two crazy ladies that refused to get out of their vehicles: You're not going to find a cop that would recommend shooting a lady because she rammed a police car at 10 kilometers per hour. After that, though, the situations become somewhat similar, with the lady refusing to exit her vehicle. My point was that the Florida situation could just as easily have become the same situation as the knife situation. There's no way for an officer to predict the future, so he must treat every situation like a worst case scenario. It's easy for us to look at the video afterwards and notice that one woman was unarmed and the other woman had an 8 inch knife. Sure, the officers might have acted otherwise if they had known how things would turn out, but they had to act based on only the circumstances that they were aware of...

And yes, a big, burly man needs to comply much faster than a little old lady if he wants to avoid getting hurt. Regardless of who you are or what you look like, however, immediate compliance with law enforcement is the best way to avoid pain and additional jail time. Don't forget that it is against the law to not obey a law enforcement officer's commands.

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

CingularDuality

It's used frequently, but it's more dangerous and less effective than a Taser.

LEO=Law Enforcement Officer

And any cop that feels disrespected by the term "cop", isn't a very good one...

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

leejo

Yeah LEO just feels more generic to me, but for no particular reason.

We seem to be on the same page: the bottom-line debate is about the proper amount of restraint and patience police should exercise. Of course we've enjoyed the benefit of hindsight and have seen only videos in which the police use force on the citizens (assuming they were all citizens, but that's another thread). I've seen a particularly disturbing and haunting dash-cam video in which the police officer is the one who is killed, and it puts all of this in a certain perspective.

There was a video going around a few weeks ago in which a police officer is assaulted and the extreme threat of lethal violence only dropped once a nearby citizen joined the fray for the good guys.

In these videos that we've discussed, the question has been "did the police react appropriately?" but in practice the question is often "which of us is going to live?" The policy matter a much easier question to debate in the abstract, with plenty of time, and zero possibility that you will die if you answer incorrectly.

I tend to defer to the pros in these matters, and trust that the plantiffs bar will sort things out over time if the pros get too big for their britches.

Adrielle

I just didn't get it! Why wouldn't they just get out of the stupid cars!?! WHY?!

I'm sorry, but if a cop/LEO pulls me over for anything, I'ma do what he says (you know, assuming it's not OBVIOUSLY abuse of power). There's no reason not to ... That woman on the phone, ... she wasn't getting out b/c she was on the phone with her mother or something? God. Grow a brain.


EDIT: (OMG 600th post!! )

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CingularDuality

I forgot to respond to this. Dudeman, this statement confirms that you're basing your opinion on watching too many TV shows and movies. You'll not find street cops "giving her one in the leg". That's the stuff of fantasies, not reality. And if she's close enough for your barrel to be firmly fixed on her head, can you tell me where her knife might be? Perhaps it's 8 inches deep into your gut?

I really didn't want this discussion to turn out this way. Can we keep this discussion a bit more realistic, please?

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

CingularDuality

Was that posted here? That seems like something that I wouldn't post here, but I seem to remember discussing it.

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

leejo

You and I did discuss it, and I wouldn't post it here either.

leejo

This seem like an odd question but: is it possible to be tased and not be arrested?

CingularDuality

Yes and no. Whenever you feel like the police are making it so that you're not free to leave, you are technically under arrest. They can say they're only "detaining" you, or "questioning" you, but if you're not free to leave, then you're under arrest. This, obviously, is not the same as being taken to jail and being booked in for a crime, though, is it?

That said, I can't think of a situation in which a Taser would be used on someone that you're not arresting. Even if your weren't planning on arresting someone, if they force you to use it, they're certainly breaking the law and are subject to arrest. This all assumes we're talking about a cop acting within the law. There are bad cops out there, and cops make mistakes, too.

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

DudeMan

oh here we go...
i said thats what i would have done, because i wouldnt have myself in that situation, i also said that i was surprised the police didnt pull their weapons and tell her to get down...., two different points of call, but in true form you want to play the polamic argument.

well, to have a barrel fixed on someones head you do not have to be close enough to touch them, so no the knife would be nowhere near me, and excuse me for quoting something i believe you posted up before ... the guy who was rammmed by a police car into a pole, (canadian video i think) to which all were saying fair treatment... now huh would this or could this kill... yes... now could this cause internal injury yess... does it imobilise the suspect, yes.... so putting a bullet in the leg of someone who just tried to kill you with both their car and a carving knife... actually not as stupid as you say...

and cing, please practise what you preech mate you insinuate i watch to many films, that turns what i say into fantasy etc etc... that inflamatory... i think so...

as for the florida video, fine, i disagree, you can look at any traffic stop in the country and say it could have gone that way or worse... does not mean the officer in both or all the situations can tase from the get go because it might... just not going to agree with that at all.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

CingularDuality

Could you write this again, please. I seriously don't understand over half of your writing.

I don't understand how you can have the barrel of a pistol firmly fixed against someone's head and still be out of reach.

I don't understand where you get the idea that it's every acceptable, much less possible, to "kneecap" a suspect. That's only in TV and movies, not real life, hence, my comment. Sure there are sharpshooters that train to take headshots and the like, but your average cop isn't going to be aiming anywhere but for the center of the body, and will probably have a difficult enough time hitting that.

I don't understand how you ever got the impression that I thought police officers should be able to Tase people "from the get go". They must take the entire situation into consideration, including what they don't know.

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

DudeMan

marvel a post which snt taking me out of context

ok, to have a barrel fixed on th suspects head means in to have it aimed at the suspects head and not moving from it... literally it cannot be fixed to a head anyway... so we wont play the literal game now.

further more, there was a thread in here where an officer rammed a suspect into a pole in the street because he was wielding a knife... could this cause death... yes, serious injury yes so given this example, it is not unrealistic to suggest another action resulting with similar outcomes... shooting her in the leg.

so thats the unrealistic stuff gone, it didnt come from film or TV and in anycase i said i would do it... not they should have... which brings me onto my next point. dont misquote me to degrade my point, i said it was something i would do, and did not say they should do it. i said more than once they should have drawn their weapons, and told her t get down seeing as she had already comitted assault with a deadly wepaon and had a knife on top of that. which again is not an unrealistic assertion. as leejo was aying earlier her actions could have gotten her killed and not by the knife, but you wont jump on him and say thats unrealistic that they would ahve fired at this lady... even though it is possible.,

you can argue about where they would fire at this lady, but the possability of this woman being shot is a real one...

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

JMJ

Yes, used all the time. Pepper spray really is only a simple first line defense though, usually against an unarmed non-compliant person.

In my department I have 3 lines of defense:

OC (pepper spray) - used against a non-compliant individual showing active resistance

ASP (baton) - Used against an individual who is threatening me with bodily harm

Firearm - used against an individual who is threatening me where I feel my life is in danger (armed with some sort of weapon). If you have a knife, I will not hesitate to shoot you if I think there's a chance you are going to stab me. I have a wife and kids to go home to and take care of.

I do not have a taser, but I do believe it's the best option we have available when we have other officers as backup, as shown in the situation with the guy and the knife. The reason he was not hit with the taser is because tasers just became available in MA (where that happened). That would've been over very quick if we had that option. The problem is that the state thought the taser was "too dangerous", so basically the option we have left is to shoot people. What would you rather be hit with, a bullet or a taser?

Bottom line, when a LEO gives you a command, do what he says whether you agree with him or not. Remember that he faces the worst of the worst day after day, he's not dealing with soccer moms in houses with white picket fences. He is doing everything he needs to so he can go home and hug his kids and tuck them in at night. This is why they are extremely cautious and may treat you like a criminal upon first contact if you are acting irrational. It's not personal, it's about going home in one piece.

DudeMan, in regards to shooting someone in the leg: Have you tried shooting a moving object that is roughly 6 to 8" wide? They don't teach us to shoot like that in academy. They teach us to shoot at COM (center of mass). It's the slowest and largest target we have to hit. Snipers take the precision difficult shots.

DudeMan

and as i have already said, it was not the course of action i prefered or offered into the debate... but what i would ahve done... regardless

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"