CingularDuality

***WARNING: Graphic videos in links.***

OK, last time we had to shut the thread down. Hopefully, this one will be less likely to incite such impassioned disagreement.

We've all seen the Palm Beach Post video, and have reacted to it one way or another. I just wanted to share with everyone how it could have gone...


Not as relevant to the Florida case that we discussed, but another good example of where a Taser would have been quite valuable: http://www.wimp.com/dropknife/

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

leejo

I thought the 2nd video in which man was shot was most telling: as the violence of the available options goes up, law enforcement's reluctance to employ those options also goes up. One would hope anyway.

The concern folks have is with the alternative: as the likelihood that the technique will result in lasting injury goes down, the police may become less willing to "negotiate" and more willing to use the technique. Imagine a future technology that immediately rendered one temporarily immobile and fully compliant and caused them no pain or lasting injury. Law enforcement might become tempted and even justified on many levels in using that technology during every interaction with suspects. Nonetheless, a certain number of those suspects would die during the interaction just because a certain number of people fall over dead of heart attacks when under stress, and of course there would be some civil rights protests and concerns.

So yeah, a taser is better than a knife in the chest or a bullet in the stomach, but I can't imagine a compliance technique that won't be criticized. We just have to hope that sensible and cooler heads balance respect for the citizenry with respect for the LEO's right to continue breathing.

Ransack

Tasers are a good thing, but you are right, they can be used prematurely. Why spend 15-20 minutes to talk a deranged lady out of a car when you can Taser her after a minute.

Wasn't there also a case recently where a cop used a taser on a grade school age girl that was having a seizure? Again, using the easy way out is sometimes not the best way.

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leejo

I don't mean to suggest that whipping out the taser is a bad thing. IMO in both these videos the insta-taser would have been super-duper. My point was that no matter how perfect the compliance technique, it will be criticized and it will result in a certain number of deaths.

The law enforcement officers, IMO, are entitled to instant and full complaince. That is, after all, what our citizens and legislators have stated with the law. Any prolonged negotiations are the result of LEO's unwillingness to harm or kill. If they can force compliance and move on to the next issue, the faster the better.

CingularDuality

Because if she's crazy enough to wave a kitchen knife around, what makes you think she's not crazy enough to shoot you with the revolver stashed between the seats? What makes you think she won't just start slashing or stabbing herself to death? Cops must gain control of the situation as soon as possible, to try to keep ANYONE from getting hurt. Tasers help them do this.

That's certainly cause for concern, but these are the same cops that have batons and OC spray that they can use without being "tracked". Tasers, unlike even their guns, make it easy to monitor usage. There's only one source for the cartridges, and whenever one is fired, it also shoots out little confetti-type tags that have a unique ID. Abuse can't be kept a secret like with other tools. I don't see why the Taser is introducing this argument.

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leejo

I think we have our wires slightly crossed. In my example of LEO's becoming tempted and justified to use the technology, I mean as a matter of policy. We have these debates about what the appropriate policy is, right? I wasn't contemplating the future technology's unauthorized or untracked use.

You make a good point, though. The fact that discharging a taser will generate questions and paperwork is a good thing and, one would think, serves as some deterrent. Maybe some LEOs in these forums can help us understand the process that begins once a taser or other weapon is discharged, vs. when a suspect shows up with some baton-like bruises or a knife in their chest.

Adrielle

When I watched the first video, I felt REALLY REALLY awful for that poor big crazy lady. I still kinda do, but the more and more I think about it, it seems to me that the cops didn't really have any other options available to them that would get the job done with less injury. It's still really sad it had to go down like that though, a feeling I'm sure the officers shared once they saw the knife sitcking out of her gut.

I'm not really anti-taser at all. Probably would have been a good option in both these situations. Increased options for how a cop can handle a situation are good ... but can also be bad. Leaves more options for error, at least. I remember some of the kids I went to high school with who said they wanted to be cops. Good kids, most of them, but a few had nothing more for brains than a box of rocks ... I wouldn't want to put a taser in their hands. But, then again I wouldn't want to put a gun in their hands either. D:

Overall, I think tasers would be beneficial, ... but I think there's enough doubt that would prove otherwise. Like someone else said, (I'm too lazy to go back and quote now) the tasers could start being used prematurely, ... and even with user ID confetti, ... I could see misuse slowly becoming less and less of an issue in the opinion of cops.

But, I don't know much about cops, either.

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leejo

I don't know about how the cops felt, but I bet most had seen some pretty bad wounds. Like the one said, leave it alone, and keep an airway open.

I worked in an emergency room in college and you see some pretty nasty wounds on occasion. You learn to evaluate them as threats to systems more than anything else, and you pretty much learn to see patients' pain as information - sometimes useful, sometimes not. It looked to me like those police were in their evaluate and act mode. The ew factor would probably kick in later over beers, or may be not. Bottom line was not that she got a nasty knife wound but that she got very lucky to survive ramming a cruiser and flashing a butcher knife at a cop. That could very easily have killed her.

Ever seen the South Park in which Cartman jumps off a building trying to fly? The Dr. says "I'm afraid that your son is... incredibly stupid. He thought he could fly with cardboard wings. The stupidity is so severe that it caused a fall, which has... put him into a deep coma." etc. Her problem wasn't the knife, but the stupidity, and she caught a severe case.

DudeMan

i fail to see why you put such relevence on this video over the last threads video, from the get go this woman has rammed a patrol car, assault with a deadly weapon... in the other video rom the other thread the woman was stopped on a traffic violation and was uncooporative.

there are a hundred ways the scenario can be handled and the taser is better than a gun, or a batton, however the argument always was the use of the taser in the selected video.... to be honest with regards to this video, i cant understand why the Gun was not pulled as soon as she rammed the officers car....

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DudeMan

papper work or not, the officers word will count for more in any court in the land, so the taser proves he has used it, does not matter if it was required, he just has to say it was. its the same as a batton briuse, they show up and the officer says yeah he resisted arrest. whilst this is undoubtedly (or hopefully) rarely the case abuse is still possible... but again tasers are better than Guns, and Battons, they on the other hand are not better than trying to tlk someone down. which is always the best option,

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Adrielle

... whoops, didn't realize there was another video. :x

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leejo

I guess, Dudeman, that LEOs learn to see non-compliance as a threat that has begun to escallate. The question is how far and for how long should we expect LEOs to allow the threat to escallate? Good point and good to see you, though.

leejo

Well if I try to expense a $1000 strip club tab, I'm probably going to have to answer questions and justify my actions. Same with the LEO and discharging one of these weapons. My question to Cing and other LEOs was in an effort to help us understand how thorough is the departmental review of this sort of action and how skeptical are the people who debrief the LEOs who use these weapons?

My bet is that its situational: if I run up a $1000 tab at a strip club and sign a $10,000,000 deal the next day, I'm probably not going to have to deal with much hassle. If I run up that tab and show nothing for it, and have a reputation that has become unpleasant, etc., then things may go badly for me. Same with the LEOs I bet. A tased 85 year old lady who uses a walker is significantly different from a tased 25 year-old male with gang tattoos.

FWIW I've never run up such a tab at a strip club, I'm just using that sort of audited action as an example.

DudeMan

i wouldnt worry, thats a long time ago, and me and cing... well we disagreed... just thought there was a difference.

i agree Leejo, i said before, and i still think that the police in the UK should have tasers, however, the problem arises as you have said, when someone uses it far too early. we can all be abrupt to an officer of the law especially for minor infractions or if we are just pissed. now i expect the Police to show some restraint in these cases, because if they didnt 9/10 dealings with the public would end in a fight.

in this situation, if i were a cop... i would have give her one in the leg when she lept out, and then had the barrel firmly fixed on her head. i am a bit surprised they didnt draw their weapons and tell her to get down even...

oh and your stupidity disease.... yes, she certainly had an incurable batch of ****ing retartedly stupid....

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

DudeMan

ok i agree with the gyst of what you are saying here, but you for me have highlighted something.... i am 20, i am a big guy i woud say intimidating if you dont know me... now what i can see happening, is i would be tased as the first option because getting into a tangle may be costly t yourself.... then you are looking at it being misused and not picked up on, because the 25 year old with gang tattoos looks like someone who would fiht back...

oh and come on.... nobody could spend that in a strip club.... 8000 yeah but 10 come on....

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"