Why I laugh at people calling FOX News 'objective' - Page 5

**Apophis** · 05-16-2006, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Was it alarming because "The 'actual' news media is garbage" or because "kids are stupid?" I trust John Stewart's writers more than I trust other news sources. Granted, I usually stick to the Internet for news now.

It's alarming because TDC has "writers" and not "reporters". They write their content and remove context for the sake of humor. When you remove context the value of the news item itself rapidly shifts to the realm of disinformation. Because TDC is classified as entertainment and not news, there are no requirements for ethics or fairness in reporting (regardless of how much other networks ignore this as well).

Steeler · 05-16-2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

I just find it odd that Air America isn't accepted here. We talked about liberal slant and hatemongering in the media and I provided a radio network that is nationally syndicated. We're not talking about an obscure web site or local/regional talk radio program.

Can someone explain why Air America doesn't count when it comes to promotion a liberal agenda while FNC counts when it comes to promoting a conservative agenda?

Here's the logic. From your earlier post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

My reason for primarily watching FOX is because I am sick of hearing news outlets across the country blaming everything on Bush and I'm sick of hearing conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory. There's too much hate in the liberal media and Democratic party.

I took that to mean that you felt there was too much hate in mainstream news, encompassing large groups such as the networks, CNN, MSNBC, etc. Fox, then, is an alternative to that establishment.

Air America is an avowed partisan station with a specific political agenda. Do they even have news reporting on it or is it all talk radio? In any case, they are an alternative to right wing talk radio, which is also filled with hate and conspiracy theories.

So what we're looking for here is a complaint against the "liberal" media, being mainstream news, that would drive you to Fox. Pitting one of the big 3 cable news stations against a partisan radio station is not a fair comparison of potential biases.

Beatnik · 05-16-2006, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

My reason for primarily watching FOX is because I am sick of hearing news outlets across the country blaming everything on Bush and I'm sick of hearing conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory. There's too much hate in the liberal media and Democratic party. I'm tired of the hate and would rather hear solutions and proposals to our problems as opposed to nitpicking other people's plans. I find that CNN and CBS to be very willing participants in the hatemongering.

It's the grouping of Air America (and citing only Air America) as a representative member of the 'liberal media and Democratic party' that I took issue with. No one argues that AA is just as rabid as Rush Limbaugh or whatever other right wing radio hosts there are. But I wouldn't (and haven't) grouped talk radio in with the Fox News discussion because, IMO, it's apples and oranges.

EDIT: Whoops, Steeler beat me to it.

**Apophis** · 05-16-2006, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Here's the logic. From your earlier post:

I took that to mean that you felt there was too much hate in mainstream news, encompassing large groups such as the networks, CNN, MSNBC, etc. Fox, then, is an alternative to that establishment.

Air America is an avowed partisan station with a specific political agenda. Do they even have news reporting on it or is it all talk radio? In any case, they are an alternative to right wing talk radio, which is also filled with hate and conspiracy theories.

So what we're looking for here is a complaint against the "liberal" media, being mainstream news, that would drive you to Fox. Pitting one of the big 3 cable news stations against a partisan radio station is not a fair comparison of potential biases.

I think my point, or more appropriately, my challenge, was to show that a liberal slant in the media does exist. Granted, I did choose an easy target with Air America, but it's still part of the media network.

Yes, Air America does intermingle news in with the talk. Often times it is difficult to determine what is news and what is hate.

I would also categorize Air America as something larger than a "radio station". I think when your radio show is syndicated nationwide on a wide variety of stations owned by various broadcasting companies and private owners, it carries a little more weight than a simple radio station.

I just did some searches trying to find the ratings for Air America and FNC. Unfortunately I haven't found a good source for them that allows me to correlate them properly. The TV ratings seem to be in numbers of viewers but the radio rating system is in percentage of market cap.

In any case, are you saying that in order to show that there a liberal slant exists in the media it has to occur in one of the big three news stations? (Obviously not FNC).

**Apophis** · 05-16-2006, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatnik

It's the grouping of Air America (and citing only Air America) as a representative member of the 'liberal media and Democratic party' that I took issue with. No one argues that AA is just as rabid as Rush Limbaugh or whatever other right wing radio hosts there are. But I wouldn't (and haven't) grouped talk radio in with the Fox News discussion because, IMO, it's apples and oranges.

EDIT: Whoops, Steeler beat me to it.

You also need to be clear when you compare Rush Limbaugh to Air America. Air America runs 24/7 with a whole host of radio hosts similar (some worse, some not quite as bad) as Randi Rhodes. It's a syndicated radio network, not a syndicated radio talk show.

If you're agreeing that AA is just as rabid as Rush Limbaugh, I feel better. That at least acknowledges that there are indeed political slants in the media that go both ways, to the right and to the left.

So, we've covered radio. Is anyone aware of a 24/7 syndicated radio NETWORK (not show) similar to Air America that is right leaning?

I do apologize for only citing Air America. I'm at work and was somewhat crunched on time so I picked the first thing I could think of that displayed the liberal slant that didn't take much time to dig up. I know, it was a soft target.

**Apophis** · 05-16-2006, 05:47 PM

Let me add this, many of you are really putting some thought into this discussion and making it quite interesting. I appreciate that, it makes for better understanding and education for all of us.

Beatnik · 05-16-2006, 05:58 PM

Again, I have next to nothing as far as numbers go, but it's my understanding that the 'popularity' (i.e. ratings) of the sum of all conservative talk radio shows eclipses AA by some obscene ratio. Is that perception wrong? Does anyone know where to find stats on that?

I think my point is that, excluding the obviously partisan/ideologically driven talk radio, what other evidence is there of liberal bias in the news media that Fox News is 'balancing'?

Personally, I've studied journalism to a small degree and have a decent understanding of its driving principles and responsibilities as the Fourth Estate. Especially in an age with a sympathetic (read:complacent) Congress, having the media question and investigate critical issues such as the government's unannounced intrusion into our privacy is more critical to our fragile democracy than ever. It's my perception that Fox News is simply not doing its job as a 'news provider' by simply towing the party line on these issues, and in effect allows millions of people to gleefully stick their collective head in the sand under the false impression that they're well informed.

EDIT: Here's the promised Daily Show montage of Fox News' 'reporting' of the latest NSA story. Out of context? Yes. Hilarious and biting? Oh, yes.

http://www.tacticalsites.com/~beatnik/tds051606.wmv

EDIT2: Another 'hitting the nail on the head' clip from last night's Daily Show contrasting government statements made about the NSA program after the first (wiretapping) revelation in the media with what we now know to be true of the full scope of the program.

http://www.tacticalsites.com/~beatni...51606part1.wmv

Beatnik · 05-16-2006, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

Let me add this, many of you are really putting some thought into this discussion and making it quite interesting. I appreciate that, it makes for better understanding and education for all of us.

Ditto. Glad to see this thread not getting personal or degrading into cheap attacks.

**Wyzcrak** · 05-16-2006, 06:05 PM

So, looking at the thread title, are we reduced to "Fox News is no less objective than anyone else"?

Given that, can anyone defend an observation in "the big three news stations" a slant the caliber of which the thread has seemingly agreed as present in FNC?

**Apophis** · 05-16-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatnik

Again, I have next to nothing as far as numbers go, but it's my understanding that the 'popularity' (i.e. ratings) of the sum of all conservative talk radio shows eclipses AA by some obscene ratio. Is that perception wrong? Does anyone know where to find stats on that?

I wish I had an answer to that question. Here in Rhode Island I don't think they have any conservative talk radio shows. I've looked and never found any. Our main talk radio station is 920AM. For a while they gave up 12 hours a day to Air America. During my drive-time, Imus was on, but after that it was nothing but Air America. They use to have a coulpe syndicated conservative talk show hosts, but they axed them all right before the 2004 election (when they made the AA move).

Quote:

I think my point is that, excluding the obviously partisan/ideologically driven talk radio, what other evidence is there of liberal bias in the news media that Fox News is 'balancing'?

Personally, I've studied journalism to a small degree and have a decent understanding of its driving principles and responsibilities as the Fourth Estate. Especially in an age with a sympathetic (read:complacent) Congress, having the media question and investigate critical issues such as the government's unannounced intrusion into our privacy is more critical to our fragile democracy than ever. Fox News is simply not doing its job as a 'news provider' by simply towing the party line on these issues, and in effect allows millions of people to gleefully stick their collective head in the sand under the false impression that they're well informed.

As far as your point goes, I think the points and parameters have been changing as this conversation has progressed. Here are two previous quotes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

There is no Democratically partisan media institution on the same level of organization or intent as FOX is for the Republicans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Well, I'd also like to hear Apophis's examples of leftist hate on cable news.

I would definitely say that Air America is a media institution with a greater level of intent than FNC.

My complaints were with the media in general, I ignored Steeler's qualification of "cable news" and stuck with "media news" as I never confined my displeasure to just cable TV. I believe I did provide an example of lefist hate in the media.

This doesn't mean I'm not going to do some hunting for more examples of this in mainstream cable/sattelite news networks, but I just wanted to make sure that it was understood my examples were in response to some VERY specific questions by Steeler, and while some of you may have other requirements of proof to show that a liberal slant does also exist, it does not invalidate my responses to Steeler's requests.

Beatnik · 05-16-2006, 07:04 PM

Yeah I think it's safe to leave 'talk radio' (AA or their conservative counterparts) out of this debate, and just focus on mainstream news organizations.

EDIT: To answer my own (now moot) question, it seems that Rush Limbaugh alone eclipses most of Air America in the ratings:

http://radio.about.com/library/weekly/aa102905a.htm

Steeler · 05-16-2006, 08:38 PM

Apophis, I simply feel that your selection of AA is a fringe example and does not contribute to the premise that "the media is liberally biased." That's a very general statement. Some media is, although I think even on that point we'd have a hard time agreeing on what a liberal viewpoint is.

**leejo** · 05-16-2006, 08:56 PM

I think you're cherry picking the organizations, and facts, that fit your view of the subject and dismissing those that do not.

How about the VP for news at ABC whose "I hate Bush" email was leaked? Whoops! How about the Ombudsman for the NY Times stating flat out that it is a liberal newspaper? There is a lot of evidence that the vast majority of "news" is liberal-leaning.

Look, the whole subject of this thread is a bit of your favorite fallacy: the straw man. Who's said Fox news is "objective"? And what if they aren't? The serious question is whether or not Fox News does a credible job of reporting the news. Their editorial decisions regarding what to report and where to place emphasis, who to call a prick and who to support, are arbitrary and subjective matters. I think their ratings demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt the fact that they are responding to the market. A lot of people are sick to death of the sanctimonious left-leaning media's distorted version of "the news."

“If I wanted to punish a province,” Frederick the Great once said. “I would turn it over to men of letters.”

The left's problem, and the majority of the media's problem, is that they simultaneously present themselves as looking out for the common man while sneering at his judgement, intelligence, and decisions.

**Apophis** · 05-16-2006, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Apophis, I simply feel that your selection of AA is a fringe example and does not contribute to the premise that "the media is liberally biased." That's a very general statement. Some media is, although I think even on that point we'd have a hard time agreeing on what a liberal viewpoint is.

I agree that AA is on the fringe of what most would consider "mainstream" media, but you did ask for an example of liberal bias in the media, so I gave you the first syndicated/national source I could think of.

I also agree that we would probably have a hard time agreeing on what a liberal viewpoint is, just as we would have a hard time agreeing on what a conservative viewpoint is.

In the end, this country needs both viewpoints represented in a balanced government. We need liberals and conservatives in the house and senate, both locally and federally. I think the past several years have shown that it doesn't work so well when it's one group entirely in control of things. There needs to be balance.

Beatnik · 05-16-2006, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I think you're cherry picking the organizations, and facts, that fit your view of the subject and dismissing those that do not.

We can bring talk radio into it if you like - the overwhelming majority of talk radio is trashy partisan attacks, and the overwhelming majority is hardcore conservative. Talk radio is the gutter of 'news analysis' as far as I'm concerned. I'd personally prefer to stick to the topic of the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

The serious question is whether or not Fox News does a credible job of reporting the news. Their editorial decisions regarding what to report and where to place emphasis, who to call a prick and who to support, are arbitrary and subjective matters. I think their ratings demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt the fact that they are responding to the market. A lot of people are sick to death of the sanctimonious left-leaning media's distorted version of "the news."

I agree completely with your first two sentences there. Towing the party line (not even the ideological line) is an editorial decision that is entirely relevant, and does leak into their news coverage. I'm searchiing now for a link to the Fox News SOP of integrating Republican talking points into every single show they produce, on a daily basis...the 'Fox News Spin' on the news, if you will. They are generally not doing their job as a member of the fourth estate questioning the party in power or doing any less than beating the drum for the republicans.

How the number of viewers translates into a measure of 'quality' or 'merit' is beyond me. Tell people that they're safe, to trust their government, don't question Dear Leader, etc. and I'm sure a ton of people want to hear that message. That doesn't make it news though, and it certainly doesn't make it 'fair and balanced'.

EDIT: Wow - I actually found the story that I read about the morning memo at Fox. FYI - The Poynter Institute is considered the gold standard of contemporary journalism, not some liberal activist organization. However those activist organizations collated the video montages in the links that follow.

http://poynter.org/forum/?id=thememo

Ok here's a couple links showing these talking points being trumpeted on Fox News:

"The Criminalization of Politics"
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/10/18/...iminalization/

"Copy and Paste Talking Points"
http://mediamatters.org/items/200504210002

"Mainstream Media Ignores Good News From Iraq"
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/03/27/ignoring-good-news/

"Stocks Fall Because National Security Was Comprimised" - This is really entertaining, actually. Working such obtuse premises into financial coverage is just absurd enough to not piss me off.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/12/fox-nsa-traitor/

Using the Daytime Facts graphic to quote Republican talking points - technically quoting people's statements is a fact. However, attribution makes it no less true or false. Ironically, the 'truthiness' shoots through the roof.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200511180007

05-16-2006, 05:47 PM	#66 (permalink)
Apophis Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Rhode Island, USA Age: 36 Posts: 8,993	Re: Why I laugh at people calling FOX News 'objective' Let me add this, many of you are really putting some thought into this discussion and making it quite interesting. I appreciate that, it makes for better understanding and education for all of us. __________________ Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

05-16-2006, 05:58 PM	#67 (permalink)
Beatnik Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Age: 33 Posts: 4,337	Re: Why I laugh at people calling FOX News 'objective' Again, I have next to nothing as far as numbers go, but it's my understanding that the 'popularity' (i.e. ratings) of the sum of all conservative talk radio shows eclipses AA by some obscene ratio. Is that perception wrong? Does anyone know where to find stats on that? I think my point is that, excluding the obviously partisan/ideologically driven talk radio, what other evidence is there of liberal bias in the news media that Fox News is 'balancing'? Personally, I've studied journalism to a small degree and have a decent understanding of its driving principles and responsibilities as the Fourth Estate. Especially in an age with a sympathetic (read:complacent) Congress, having the media question and investigate critical issues such as the government's unannounced intrusion into our privacy is more critical to our fragile democracy than ever. It's my perception that Fox News is simply not doing its job as a 'news provider' by simply towing the party line on these issues, and in effect allows millions of people to gleefully stick their collective head in the sand under the false impression that they're well informed. EDIT: Here's the promised Daily Show montage of Fox News' 'reporting' of the latest NSA story. Out of context? Yes. Hilarious and biting? Oh, yes. http://www.tacticalsites.com/~beatnik/tds051606.wmv EDIT2: Another 'hitting the nail on the head' clip from last night's Daily Show contrasting government statements made about the NSA program after the first (wiretapping) revelation in the media with what we now know to be true of the full scope of the program. http://www.tacticalsites.com/~beatni...51606part1.wmv __________________ -F- Beatnik

05-16-2006, 06:05 PM	#69 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: Why I laugh at people calling FOX News 'objective' So, looking at the thread title, are we reduced to "Fox News is no less objective than anyone else"? Given that, can anyone defend an observation in "the big three news stations" a slant the caliber of which the thread has seemingly agreed as present in FNC? __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

05-16-2006, 07:04 PM	#71 (permalink)
Beatnik Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Age: 33 Posts: 4,337	Re: Why I laugh at people calling FOX News 'objective' Yeah I think it's safe to leave 'talk radio' (AA or their conservative counterparts) out of this debate, and just focus on mainstream news organizations. EDIT: To answer my own (now moot) question, it seems that Rush Limbaugh alone eclipses most of Air America in the ratings: http://radio.about.com/library/weekly/aa102905a.htm __________________ -F- Beatnik Last edited by Beatnik; 05-16-2006 at 07:35 PM.

05-16-2006, 08:38 PM	#72 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Why I laugh at people calling FOX News 'objective' Apophis, I simply feel that your selection of AA is a fringe example and does not contribute to the premise that "the media is liberally biased." That's a very general statement. Some media is, although I think even on that point we'd have a hard time agreeing on what a liberal viewpoint is. __________________

05-16-2006, 08:56 PM	#73 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Why I laugh at people calling FOX News 'objective' I think you're cherry picking the organizations, and facts, that fit your view of the subject and dismissing those that do not. How about the VP for news at ABC whose "I hate Bush" email was leaked? Whoops! How about the Ombudsman for the NY Times stating flat out that it is a liberal newspaper? There is a lot of evidence that the vast majority of "news" is liberal-leaning. Look, the whole subject of this thread is a bit of your favorite fallacy: the straw man. Who's said Fox news is "objective"? And what if they aren't? The serious question is whether or not Fox News does a credible job of reporting the news. Their editorial decisions regarding what to report and where to place emphasis, who to call a prick and who to support, are arbitrary and subjective matters. I think their ratings demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt the fact that they are responding to the market. A lot of people are sick to death of the sanctimonious left-leaning media's distorted version of "the news." “If I wanted to punish a province,” Frederick the Great once said. “I would turn it over to men of letters.” The left's problem, and the majority of the media's problem, is that they simultaneously present themselves as looking out for the common man while sneering at his judgement, intelligence, and decisions. Last edited by leejo; 05-16-2006 at 09:15 PM.

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