H-Hour

I think Wolfie was using the argument to undermine the Palestinian's claim to the land, as opposed to reinforce the Jews claim.

If I am correct in my assumption, I agree with Wolfie. Facts on the ground make the return of Israel to Palestinian control, or the return of all Palestinian refugees to the homes they left, an unrealistic option. Here is why I think the Palestinian claim to the land is still important and relevant:

1. The Palestinian's claim to the land is not only recent, but it involves unsettled Palestinians (ie - refugees) who still have the keys to their homes. And, in some cases, it involves homes that are still standing in the same place they were before. Does this undermine Jewish claims to the land? Absolutely not. Both claims are valid.

2. The Palestinian's today recognize Israel's right to exist, which means they understand the reality inherent in the fact that there are Jews living under the state of Israel who have settled and established homes. While they would love to go back to their exact homes, the real value of their "right of return" is in reperations and also in the hope that they can at least return to the area they lived in, and take up residence in the land they left (if not the exact home).

This is a very hotly debated issue, though, because historical claims from both sides run into problems when you start to deal with the implementation of these claims. This is one of those issues that creates a big practical problem, for which there will be no easy solution. But to disregard one side's claim does not solve the problem.

DudeMan

yes the arab settlers in palestine/israel are if you wish to be pedantic about who was where first, occupiers. since the days when the jewish natives living there were exiled from their homeland by the egyptians. so when people say that the israelis are an occupying force they cant be. if america was to invade france, then after 200 years the french came back and took part of their land back, are they occupiers, no they are the rightful owners who take back land stolen from them by the inhabitants ansestors.

the same principal can be applied,

DudeMan

well first of all it seems you have adopted the aproach, well people have not swallowed the approach i have offered but defered so they have dismissed the arabs.

nice generalisation however unfortunatly untrue, the only thing i have seen is this guy completely siding with arab insurgents and having a favor for their activities, further more he manufactures the statistics he gives not to show the truth but to show his version of it.

noone here has dismissed the arabs claim to the land, however when you say they are willing to go back to their homes, well all very nice h-hour but these same arabs who years before were in wars with the israelis, im sorry, but as a nation i think israel is totally and completely within its rights to not allow palestinians to live in israelis controlled territory. we have seen how a few terrorists who wield sniper rifles and bombs can do, now allow thoughsands into your capital and watch it fall.

you would not allow a member of sadams bathparty who was still bitter about the war to live next door to you, and you as a third party and me even can be as diplomatic and idealistic as we like but if you had to live with your family next to a man who months ago was willing to kill himself in the hope of killing as many israelis as possible, there is no way in hell you would do it.

and yet these palestinians who are happy to go back to homes from refugee camps you say, then please explain hopw every major road to peace agreed by the moderate palestinians and israelis is always shattered by a wave of extremeist suicide bombs, i will not excuse the israelis i am sure they have had sticky situations where they have killed innocent people, however i can not agree nor side with the targetting of civillians for political gains and that is why i am always more inclined to agree with israelis argument.

no western government would in their right minds negotiate with terrorists and they have said this on many occaisions, so why do we expect a democratic country who resides in the middle east, who has repeated terror attacks aimed at its citizens to negotiate with the terrorists who do this.

luna

Dudeman,

You cannot harrass the majority of Palestinians because of what a few extremists do. That's entirely racist.

I remember as a child my mom telling me that when she grew up (in the projects) that all the the black kids were mean and beat up her sister. From that point on, she has come to believe that all black people are that way.

It's a ridiculous arguement you are posing here. I'm sorry, man. You need to really take the time to learn about this whole scenario instead of pointing fingers and shouting "Terrorist! Terrorist!" without all of the necessary information.

I think this more than anything demonstrates the point of that article. People believe what they read and hear, and delve no deeper into the issues at hand.

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CingularDuality

Pure, biased hypocrisy, IMO ...

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DudeMan

the fact remains that in the area the relations are unstable and therefore it is unfair to expect people that are willing to kill one another to live together,

i am not sayiong all palestinians are terrorists, but to a jewish person living in the area it is fair to assume that the person may be a terrorist, its a damn survival instinct.

if there was widespread violence against white people from black people, who went out of their way to kill white people, then i will take the same view, and that is not racist.

do not throw a racist card at me in hope of silence infact dont call me racist, you aint got any right to do so.

DudeMan

noted but ok whatever, if you cant see the sentiment, then well you7 can believe what you want

Apophis

I hate to get involved in this forum. But I have a question for you.

Based on your above statement, should your country and mine automatically assume every time we see someone in our countries who is of Arab descent that they are a terrorist? Should we stop any arabs from living in our countries because we assume they are just all terrorists?

Personally I don't believe so. Terrorists are terrorists. Arabs are not terrorists.

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DudeMan

well hate to burst americas bubble, however you have had one attack, being of irish decent i know that many Irish people living in the UK were treated with increasing suspicion and our problem was 1/5 the problem in palestine/Israel.

also in this country, yes many arab men and women when entering train stations and other public places are actually stopped by the police if they are wearing an overcoat (cover nech to ankle) or a rucksac. (back pack), i agree with this policy because we have actually made arrests in this country and located houses due to those arrests with plans to hit the UK with terror,

and this problem that we have is even less of a problem than the one faced in israel, you have had one terror attack, ad yes it was horrific, but your american citizens can walk the astreets today still remembering the disaster but still feeling pretty safe. for many israelis this is a privallidge they do not have, they have terror attacks on their minds every day, and there is always the highest risk that it could happen today, tomorrow the next day.

im sorry however you cannot enter the united states or my country which suffered at the hands of terrorists, for more than 50 years, with the problem in the middle east, their war is not seeing an end in sight soon,

just on the subject of IRA, you say i act rash, as an English national with Irish relatives, i visited ireland alot, and even today going through belfast with British plates on the car, well lets just say we dont stop, and that is the god damn truth, i will not lie or embelish to get a point across, when we go to Ireland we also do not wear the saintgeorge cross even though our football team was playing, and we very rearly venture into previously violent sectarian areas. so no with a conflict 1/5 th the size of the palestiian / israelis conflict i do not think it is at all unfair to suggest that the jewish, or palestinian man for that matter, to choose wheather their nieghbours are jewish or palestinian.

a road map would go some way to achieving that but as i have said before in recent history it seems every roadmap has been shattered by another suicide bomb.

DudeMan

and this attitude is the reason our police force is called institutionally racist, because when 60 % of crimes committed in innercity areas are committed by ethnic minorities, and 63% of all stop and searches are against people of ethnic origin ... people shout out black people are not criminals.

no i agree but if over half the crime is committed by black people, then black people are nbot criminals but crime is more likely to be committed by a black person.


and i guess ill get callled racist for that, even though i am not at all saying that its because they are black they commit crimes nor that black people are all criminals.

you see a statement like that says evcerything and nothing at the same time,

luna

For the record, I am not "judging" you, Dudeman. I am reading what you are saying, and interpreting it in my mind to formulate a reply. If it is not your intention to appear racist, then be sure to choose words that to not make you seem that way. I'm responding to what you have shown me. So before we really get going on who the hell I think I am, take a step back and understand I cannot read your mind, nor can I read through the lines of what you're saying to figure out what you *really* mean.

This is a discussion, not a personal attack on Dudeman and his morals. Can we keep the inflammatory replies out of this one?

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H-Hour

It would also be worth nothing, since this was the comment that inflamed the last few replies, that Jews are only a slight majority in Israel. Jews and Palestinians already live with each other and, in the north, they have lived and worked cooperatively and peacefully for a long time.

DudeMan

well lecture me all you want about mind readin, but suck some of that medicine back


because i cant read throuigh the personal insult that YOU slung at me with your frasing,

second, dont patronise me i am not stupid.

i ageee it is a discussion and until your reply i have been extremely level headed, and i have not made any attempts to attack anyone, i have highlighted evidence to suggest some things however i have even gone out of my way with h-hour to explain i am not attacking him etc etc.

so i agree it is a discussion, and i would apreciate it if you thought before you threw out a phrase like the one above and then work under the assumption that it is not an insult.

DudeMan

irriguardless, catholics and protestans live peacefully for the duration of The troubels in the 1980s in gallway and Limerick,

dosent mean that catholics would choose to live in belfast.

a cross section of any conflict will find easy areas and areas of trouble, so in an area of trouble the comment still applies.

Fait_Maker

Much like someone hating your actions but not hating you; she called your comment racist and not you. It is quite possible to believe someone made a racist comment but isn't racist in general.

Also, for anyone to have an opinion they have to judge the input they receive. It is impossible for anyone to determine anything with a judgement. Judging something is neutral in nature because you can have a good judgement or a bad one. So I guess we can tell you who the heck she thinks she is. She is someone involved in the discussion. Now it's your turn to judge my comments and decide if they are of value to you. If not, fine. Move along as you tell everyone else. If they are of value, thank me for my words and move along anyway.

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