IceCold

True. Click here for more info on the country (and any other country, for that matter).

Zebra

The overwhelming majority of Palestinians are living as refugees (if you can call people who haven't got on with their lives 35 years after a war "refugees") on the land they claim right now. There can be no return of Israel to Palestinian control, because they were never in control of it. They didn't even live there. We're talking about people who were citizens of Jordan (West Bank), Syria (Golan), or Egypt (Gaza) prior to the seizure of those territories by Israel in the 1967 war, not people who were living in Israel.

Their true grievance is living under Israeli occupation, although this side argument that goes on about who has some sort of moral claim to the land of Israel and whether "Palestinians" have a right of return typically engenders misplaced sympathy for their cause.

They may recognize that on some piece of paper their leadership signed, but that's not what's being taught in their schools. They not only think Israel needs to be destroyed, they think they're capable of doing it.

luna

Zebra-

this isn't about people getting on with their lives. They have been living in refugee camps for decades, waiting to go home. They are not naturalized into the surrounding communities because many of those communities will not allow them to become citizens of their country. As such, they are not entitled to any of the benefits of citizenry in their current locations. That makes them ineligible for work, for healthcare, and many other things we take for granted. How can they get on with their lives in a place where they are considered outsiders?

My understanding is not that the Palestinians want to wipe out the jews- they simply want the land they were promised when they first left (many of whom left in 1948, when 77% of the land the UN granted them was taken over by Israel). In 1974, the General Assembly reaffirmed the right of the Palestinians to return home.

Why would they give up that right?

__________________
Resurgent's New Motivational Motto:
"Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!"

Jesus had a soulstone.

H-Hour

I disagree completely. Are there elements of Palestinian society that believe that? Sure. Is that the norm? No, not from my experience. In fact, I didn't hear one person even suggest such an absurd notion. Even when Palestinian/Israeli cultural leaders tried to sideline the political leadership with the Geneva Accord it involved granting Israel a lot of land. Most of what I hear these days from Palestinians is the one state solution. Though many will simply say, "what can we do?"

Zebra

Wait a minute. The people in those "refugee" camps are sitting on the same land that they were living on before the 1967 war. What home are they waiting to go to, and where is it located? If you think it's located inside Israel, you've been suckered.

Their countries (Syria, Jordan, and Egypt) started a war in which they were defeated and lost territory. The inhabitants of that territory are your "refugees." Considering that they're entirely hostile to Israel, are you suggesting that Israel should grant them citizenship?

Your understanding happens to differ from the understanding of 99% of the Palestinians.

Well, they had most of that land before the 1967 war, although it wasn't called Palestine. In the preceding two decades, there was no call for a Palestine and no "Palestinians" claiming they wanted such a nation. What they did want was to destroy Israel, and they failed and lost the war.

No, 77% of the land granted them wasn't taken over by Israel. When all of the surrounding nations attacked Israel and lost (for the first time), Israel took a very small portion of the land. Most if was absorbed by Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria - none of whom ever made any effort to create a Palestinian state.

When the UN General Assembly has an army, maybe they'll be able to enforce that one along with the right of the Jews to return to their homes in the various Arab nations of the Middle East that evicted them in 1949. I won't hold my breath.

Oh, I don't know... because it beats living in some ****hole refugee camp for 30 years holding onto a delusion that you'll someday win a war you've already lost repeatedly? Because leading a normal life is better than sending your kids to blow themselves up? Because in no other war in the history of the world has there ever been refugees loitering around 30 years later? These people aren't refugees, they're bums.

H-Hour

I'm sorry, but your statements are losing credibility with me when you say stuff like this. What would you base this statement on?

luna

I need some factual support for your last set of statements, Zebra. I'd be interested to see anything you would provide to me that involved facts.

__________________
Resurgent's New Motivational Motto:
"Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!"

Jesus had a soulstone.

Zebra

What they actually teach in their schools, opinion polls that are taken, the large crowds of Palestinians yelling "Death to Israel" in the streets... stuff like that.

jex

I though that Israel provoked the 6 day war for the sole purpose of gaining land?

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Jex

Zebra

Most of those statements were facts, and I'm really not sure how I'm supposed to support factual statements with facts. You want me to cite a web site that states the same facts? Does it make the facts more real if they're on a web site? Tell me specifically which statement you need some facts on, and I'll find something.

Zebra

DudeMan

welol not according to texts i have read, it was a standoff between the PLO trying to prevent israel from doing something (cant remember what) and syria with the help of other arab nations funds ( possibly troops) started hitting israel. a very simplifed version, though alot more to it

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

DudeMan

oops didnt see this, not sure i agree with it all, some things i have read conflict with this, but the essience is there

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

jex

It seems from Zebra's link that had israel not gone forward with this plan then perhaps the war would have been avoided? Whilst the text uses emotive speech from the arabs it still remains unsure as to who was responsible. It's not uncommon for one side to goad another to start a fight so they can get what they want. I'll have to do some more research on this and see what I can find.

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Jex

DudeMan

well actually the plan was aproaved by the UN at the toime, they were well within their rights to go ahead,

and the PLO an extremist group at this time still had the policy of driving the jews into the sea.

so i think it is not as fuzzy as you make out

__________________


The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"