Another My Lai? - Page 2

icky · 06-02-2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

No, the story is that the incident occured, AND that there may have been a coverup. I think people can understand the high risk of stressed-out soldiers disregarding the ROE, but however sympathetic one may be to these young soldiers' situation it remains unacceptable. For their leaders to compound the problem by attempting to cover it up is unexcusable.

I agree with you on a personal level about delivering bad news quickly and fully, but I think that from a PR perspective one has to manage communications somewhat differently. That's just the reality of how one plays the game.

No, that isn't how you play the PR game. If you follow any business, you should know this. Bad news is delivered like pulling off a Band-Aid, and good news is delivered in a trickle.

My comment with regards to the story is not that people can accept soldiers slaughter innocent people, but rather that events like that are inevitable, just like drive-by shootings in a big city. You can deal with the tragedy, lock up the criminals responsible, and move on.

The alleged corruption in the higher ranks is far more serious, because it undermines trust, and if you can't trust your military command structure, you have big problems.

**leejo** · 06-02-2006, 07:29 PM

I guess we disagree about the bad news/PR issue. From what I've seen, bad news generally appears first as a rumor, then a whisper, then several qualifying statements, then leaks, then "sources" speaking off the record, then news. I don't think that's an accident.

**leejo** · 06-02-2006, 07:54 PM

Interesting insight into Haditha from 8/22/05: http://www.sweetness-light.com/archi...our-media-won/

Looks like a rough town.

The last sentence is

Quote:

But just remember this article when you hear the denizens of Haditha express their outrage at the "American atrocities" they claim to have witnessed.

Curiouser and curiouser. I bet being the US military investigator in that town was fun.

icky · 06-02-2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Curiouser and curiouser. I bet being the US military investigator in that town was fun.

Somehow I don't think it's a solo job, like Columbo strolling from place to place mumbling questions.

Rick_the_new_guy · 06-03-2006, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

I don't think it's another Mai Lai. The situation is quite different in many respects, from the soldiers involved (draftees vs. marines), the orders (search and destroy vs.
While I don't subscribe to blindly supporting the troops, I take even more issue with condemning them based on the actions or mistakes of a few. If anything, I would hope that reasons like this would be taken into account more carefully when making decisions on going to war in the first place. Sending troops into heavily populated areas is a very dangerous proposition for all involved, and I'm not sure that was fully realized in planning for this conflict.

My thoughts exactly. Lt. William Calley (the auther of the My Lai massacare) from what i know was a shake and bake officer and had very little training and morales comparted to the officers today. The hatred and frustration his Company had with the entrenched hidden V.C. and their heavily mined area is comparable to the hatred that current soilders could have with the I.E.D. invested areas of Iraq. The body count scale count of the My Lai would dwarf that of what may of happen in Iraq.
Politicaly, the proportions are closer in scale.
Feel free to disagree with me, but besides from the geographics, the nightmare of vietnam has returned repackaged for the next generation in Iraq. Granted i doubt america will hit the 58,000 K.I.A. mark. The more i study Nam the more i do not understand the search and destroy method. My intel states that half the causlities were from bobby traps and such. Good night!! that is horriable.

But Nam is over, we can only learn from the past in order to have a better present so that the future can be the best it can be.
P.S. the four horsemen of the Apocalypse ride strong today as they did before and will always ride strong untill the end of humanity. When humanity passes so will the horsemen.

Spartan25 · 06-03-2006, 08:01 PM

Has anyone thought this might be something set up by the insurgents to whip up support for their side? They've already bombed mosques and such, what's shooting some innocent people and blaming it on the Americans?

Rick_the_new_guy · 06-03-2006, 08:46 PM

Good point. That is totally possible. Destroy those who are of a differnt clan and get everybody angry at the Americans, a two for one deal.

**CingularDuality** · 06-04-2006, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan25

Has anyone thought this might be something set up by the insurgents to whip up support for their side? They've already bombed mosques and such, what's shooting some innocent people and blaming it on the Americans?

I'm pretty sure that's not the case in this situation...

**leejo** · 10-07-2007, 07:06 PM

I feel like I owe the Marines an apology on this one. The charges have evaporated and despite the presumption of guilt voiced in this article, I'm going to assume that our Marines did their jobs in a tough spot until someone shows me otherwise.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/wo...gewanted=print

Steeler · 10-08-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

By the time the Marine Corps announced murder charges against the infantrymen, 13 months had passed. Evidence vanished, witnesses evaporated and memories paled.

Quote:

Other military law experts also noted that in his two reports on the charges against Lance Corporals Sharratt and Tatum, Colonel Ware revealed a willingness to give the men the benefit of the doubt, and to consider the impact of the prosecutions on the morale of troops still fighting in Iraq.

“It does surprise me to see that the killing of seven women and children by grenades and rifles, for the purposes of clearing structures, is being treated the way this investigating officer has treated it,” said Eugene R. Fidell, an expert in military law in Washington.

In an unusual departure from the analysis of the facts in Lance Corporal Sharratt’s case, Colonel Ware warned that putting marines on trial for murder without having the evidence to prove it could “erode public support of the Marine Corps and mission in Iraq.”

Sounds like a case of prosecutorial discretion - a decision made in the "context" of political repercussions and the potential for shameful revelations. The law says they are innocent, but the the situation has hardly been resolved to everyone's satisfaction. The real danger of not having a more rigorous and open investigation and report on this incident is the deepening of distrust among Iraqis for Americans - particularly in the wake of the Blackwater thing.

You have to ask what is the greater danger: the loss of morale at the thought that Marines could do such things, or the loss of trust from the thought that they can get away with it.

**Gillespie** · 10-08-2007, 12:28 PM

In an environment where the enemy doesn't wear a uniform and anyone can be an enemy, things can get pretty insane.

Was it anything like My Lai? Hard to say. Looks like the case would have been ambiguous at best even if it had gone to trial.

It's gone from the public's consciousness, too. Ask someone on the street about "Haditha" and they'd probably think you were talking about some new singer from Hollywood. :P Anyway... I'm biased in this case, being in the military and having experienced life "over there".

But hey, in other news, K-Fed has custody of Britney's kids! OMGZ noes!

*sigh*

Switchcraft · 10-09-2007, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

Sounds like a case of prosecutorial discretion - a decision made in the "context" of political repercussions and the potential for shameful revelations. The law says they are innocent, but the the situation has hardly been resolved to everyone's satisfaction. The real danger of not having a more rigorous and open investigation and report on this incident is the deepening of distrust among Iraqis for Americans - particularly in the wake of the Blackwater thing.

You have to ask what is the greater danger: the loss of morale at the thought that Marines could do such things, or the loss of trust from the thought that they can get away with it.

I don't think that just because there was an acknowledgement of the political context of these events that those were the only things considered. (I realize that's not what you said, I'm just ruminating.) There were other dangers present here besides morale issues. The prosecution, in this case, was pushing for a ruling that might have dramatically changed how everyone in the military would conduct urban combat.

Steeler · 10-09-2007, 12:00 PM

I see your point, Switch. There are a lot of factors here.

**Gillespie** · 10-10-2007, 01:39 PM

Entering and clearing buildings are the absolutely most frightening things I've ever done. First guy into a hostile building usually gets hit. I've seen it happen... You just charged in, engage targets, and try to make that split-second determination between if they're hostile or not. It's insanely tough to do, though.

I wish, wish, wish we weren't shackled with these police officer duties. The paperwork we have to fill out after killing just one bad guy is disheartening, and I still staunchly maintain that the pressure placed upon the new soldiers in regards to the Almighty Rules of Engagement cause hesitation in a combat situation.

During the RoE briefs is always seems like they're telling us: "You ALWAYS have the right to defend yourself!... BUT YOU BETTER MAKE DAMN SURE BEFORE YOU PULL THAT TRIGGER OR YOUR ASS IS GOING TO LEAVENWORTH FOR MURDER!!!!"

Very tiresome.

06-02-2006, 07:29 PM	#17 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Another My Lai? I guess we disagree about the bad news/PR issue. From what I've seen, bad news generally appears first as a rumor, then a whisper, then several qualifying statements, then leaks, then "sources" speaking off the record, then news. I don't think that's an accident.

06-03-2006, 08:01 PM	#21 (permalink)
Spartan25 Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 135	Re: Another My Lai? Has anyone thought this might be something set up by the insurgents to whip up support for their side? They've already bombed mosques and such, what's shooting some innocent people and blaming it on the Americans? __________________ 99. A smiley face is not used to mark a minefield. 100. Claymore mines are not filled with yummy candy, and it is wrong to tell new soldiers that they are. 101. I am not allowed to mount a bayonet on a crew-served weapon.

06-03-2006, 08:46 PM	#22 (permalink)
Rick_the_new_guy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 29 Posts: 1,789	Re: Another My Lai? Good point. That is totally possible. Destroy those who are of a differnt clan and get everybody angry at the Americans, a two for one deal.

10-07-2007, 07:06 PM	#24 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Another My Lai? I feel like I owe the Marines an apology on this one. The charges have evaporated and despite the presumption of guilt voiced in this article, I'm going to assume that our Marines did their jobs in a tough spot until someone shows me otherwise. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/wo...gewanted=print

10-08-2007, 12:28 PM	#26 (permalink)
Gillespie Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 1,067	Re: Another My Lai? In an environment where the enemy doesn't wear a uniform and anyone can be an enemy, things can get pretty insane. Was it anything like My Lai? Hard to say. Looks like the case would have been ambiguous at best even if it had gone to trial. It's gone from the public's consciousness, too. Ask someone on the street about "Haditha" and they'd probably think you were talking about some new singer from Hollywood. :P Anyway... I'm biased in this case, being in the military and having experienced life "over there". But hey, in other news, K-Fed has custody of Britney's kids! OMGZ noes! sigh __________________ <ArmA Information/SOPs> <ArmA Admin Team> <TG Req. Reading>

10-09-2007, 12:00 PM	#28 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,952	Re: Another My Lai? I see your point, Switch. There are a lot of factors here. __________________

10-10-2007, 01:39 PM	#29 (permalink)
Gillespie Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 1,067	Re: Another My Lai? Entering and clearing buildings are the absolutely most frightening things I've ever done. First guy into a hostile building usually gets hit. I've seen it happen... You just charged in, engage targets, and try to make that split-second determination between if they're hostile or not. It's insanely tough to do, though. I wish, wish, wish we weren't shackled with these police officer duties. The paperwork we have to fill out after killing just one bad guy is disheartening, and I still staunchly maintain that the pressure placed upon the new soldiers in regards to the Almighty Rules of Engagement cause hesitation in a combat situation. During the RoE briefs is always seems like they're telling us: "You ALWAYS have the right to defend yourself!... BUT YOU BETTER MAKE DAMN SURE BEFORE YOU PULL THAT TRIGGER OR YOUR ASS IS GOING TO LEAVENWORTH FOR MURDER!!!!" Very tiresome. __________________ <ArmA Information/SOPs> <ArmA Admin Team> <TG Req. Reading>

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