Another My Lai?

**leejo** · 05-26-2006, 04:44 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...estigations_12

I've been worried that this was coming since I read that the marine commanders in the area had been relieved: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...eadlines-world

Not good.

Kerostasis · 05-26-2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

The official, who discussed the matter on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the yet-to-be-completed investigation...did not disclose specific evidence.

Don't you just love these guys? They're specifically told they can't discuss something, because the investigation is underway...and so they go report it to the media anyway, except without any actual facts to base the case on, or even their own name as a source of credibility.

That's not to say that nothing happened, of course. Just that we ought to wait for some actual evidence before jumping to conclusions, and guys like THIS promote paranoia.

**CingularDuality** · 05-27-2006, 03:04 AM

I remember reading about this a while back... Quite distressing.

**leejo** · 05-27-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

Don't you just love these guys? They're specifically told they can't discuss something, because the investigation is underway...and so they go report it to the media anyway, except without any actual facts to base the case on, or even their own name as a source of credibility.

That's not to say that nothing happened, of course. Just that we ought to wait for some actual evidence before jumping to conclusions, and guys like THIS promote paranoia.

Yeah I tend to agree, but the tea leaves were definitely there when those commanders were relieved shortly after the event in question.

**leejo** · 06-02-2006, 11:13 AM

Ok so I've been paying attention to the stories and commentary about this all week. I'm sure several of you have. Earlier in the week Michelle Malkin blasted Murtha for his perceived glee at this situation. All of the conservative commentators have rested on the position that the investigation is underway and we simply don't know what's going on yet.

I have two theories:

1) bad news is always true (with the occasional pleasant surprise)
2) the "irresponsible" leaks that begin before an investigation like this are complete are not for the benefit of the political opportunists on the opposite side but is a process of damage control. Better to dribble out the bad news over the space of a few weeks than to blare the news all at once on the front pages. It's the whole reason we have bumpers and cars designed to crumple in a wreck: cause the energy to dissipate over space and time so it doesn't kill the driver.

Personally, I decided this wasn't going to end well when I saw the news of the officers' being relieved. It's a BIG DEAL to relieve and officer in the middle of combat operations in the field, and that was the only bad news that was floating around out there. Somebody higher up decided that something was broken and needed fixing at a high level.

Looks like things are shaping up for a weekend news release.

**Rincewind** · 06-02-2006, 11:21 AM

Yeah, this is some pretty disappointing news.

**leejo** · 06-02-2006, 12:54 PM

Excellent write-up here.

AMosely · 06-02-2006, 01:07 PM

I don't think it's another Mai Lai. The situation is quite different in many respects, from the soldiers involved (draftees vs. marines), the orders (search and destroy vs. search and secure), and of course the theater itself and the politics surrounding it. I keep hearing that 99% of the marines are ethical soldiers, and I believe that to be true. It's difficult if not impossible to get that number to 100%, even in an all-volunteer force. I have faith that the vast majority of US forces over there are doing the best job they know how (under extreme conditions and limited resources), and outrage at incidents like this should be used to make that point even stronger.

The best we can hope for in this situation is an honest and public investigation, with the soldiers involved being punished for whatever crimes they are proven to have committed. So far this seems to be happening, albeit a bit late. It won't undo the damage, but it will help heal it and serve to prevent it in the future.

While I don't subscribe to blindly supporting the troops, I take even more issue with condemning them based on the actions or mistakes of a few. If anything, I would hope that reasons like this would be taken into account more carefully when making decisions on going to war in the first place. Sending troops into heavily populated areas is a very dangerous proposition for all involved, and I'm not sure that was fully realized in planning for this conflict.

**leejo** · 06-02-2006, 01:12 PM

Yeah I'm thinking it's comparable to My Lai in terms of the political fallout, but you make excellent points about how this situation is different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

Sending troops into heavily populated areas is a very dangerous proposition for all involved, and I'm not sure that was fully realized in planning for this conflict.

I disagree. I think the MSM got big goo-goo eyes at how well the initial stages went (when they weren't comparing a planned refuel and resupply stop to Vietnam) and painted a picture that the American people bought. But I don't know of anyone who thought that sending troops into cities wasn't dicey to say the least.

aeroripper · 06-02-2006, 01:40 PM

Looks like another one is starting to take shape, a smaller ordeal but bad nonetheless:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...bes/index.html

Quote:

A Balad police official told CNN at the time that witnesses claimed that U.S. soldiers kept an entire family in a room before spraying them with bullets randomly.

U.S. soldiers destroyed the building and also killed livestock belonging to people in the house, the official said.

Police found bullet casings in the house that would only have been used by U.S. soldiers, the official asserted.

**leejo** · 06-02-2006, 01:59 PM

Yeah I'm still skeptical about that one.

Quote:

A BBC report on Thursday ran video of the apparent aftermath of the incident, obtained from a Sunni political group. The BBC says the video shows dead bodies with gunshot wounds.

That story's source is iffy, and it seems hyped. But we'll see. Sprayed the room, burned the house, killed the livestock, slept with their girlfriends, kicked their dog...

**Rincewind** · 06-02-2006, 02:31 PM

...And stole their bible. ehh, err, Koran

icky · 06-02-2006, 02:50 PM

Bad news is ALWAYS best delivered all at once to avoid the perception of one thing happening after another.

The story here is not the incident itself, but rather whether someone tried to hide it. Nobody should be surprised at all that the incident happened (assuming it really did happen).

**leejo** · 06-02-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rincewind

...And stole their bible. ehh, err, Koran

Exactly. And said their mommas are fat. Looks like it was a myth: http://abcnews.go.com/International/...2032795&page=1

**leejo** · 06-02-2006, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icky

Bad news is ALWAYS best delivered all at once to avoid the perception of one thing happening after another.

The story here is not the incident itself, but rather whether someone tried to hide it. Nobody should be surprised at all that the incident happened (assuming it really did happen).

No, the story is that the incident occured, AND that there may have been a coverup. I think people can understand the high risk of stressed-out soldiers disregarding the ROE, but however sympathetic one may be to these young soldiers' situation it remains unacceptable. For their leaders to compound the problem by attempting to cover it up is unexcusable.

I agree with you on a personal level about delivering bad news quickly and fully, but I think that from a PR perspective one has to manage communications somewhat differently. That's just the reality of how one plays the game.

05-26-2006, 04:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Another My Lai? http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...estigations_12 I've been worried that this was coming since I read that the marine commanders in the area had been relieved: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...eadlines-world Not good.

05-27-2006, 03:04 AM	#3 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 17,137	Re: Another My Lai? I remember reading about this a while back... Quite distressing. __________________ Become a supporting member! Buy a Tactical Duck! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

06-02-2006, 11:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Another My Lai? Ok so I've been paying attention to the stories and commentary about this all week. I'm sure several of you have. Earlier in the week Michelle Malkin blasted Murtha for his perceived glee at this situation. All of the conservative commentators have rested on the position that the investigation is underway and we simply don't know what's going on yet. I have two theories: 1) bad news is always true (with the occasional pleasant surprise) 2) the "irresponsible" leaks that begin before an investigation like this are complete are not for the benefit of the political opportunists on the opposite side but is a process of damage control. Better to dribble out the bad news over the space of a few weeks than to blare the news all at once on the front pages. It's the whole reason we have bumpers and cars designed to crumple in a wreck: cause the energy to dissipate over space and time so it doesn't kill the driver. Personally, I decided this wasn't going to end well when I saw the news of the officers' being relieved. It's a BIG DEAL to relieve and officer in the middle of combat operations in the field, and that was the only bad news that was floating around out there. Somebody higher up decided that something was broken and needed fixing at a high level. Looks like things are shaping up for a weekend news release.

06-02-2006, 11:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
Rincewind Join Date: May 2005 Location: Casting useless spells in Oklahoma. Age: 27 Posts: 2,997	Re: Another My Lai? Yeah, this is some pretty disappointing news. __________________ ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~ No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are. Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

06-02-2006, 12:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Another My Lai? Excellent write-up here.

06-02-2006, 01:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
AMosely Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maine Age: 34 Posts: 2,793	Re: Another My Lai? I don't think it's another Mai Lai. The situation is quite different in many respects, from the soldiers involved (draftees vs. marines), the orders (search and destroy vs. search and secure), and of course the theater itself and the politics surrounding it. I keep hearing that 99% of the marines are ethical soldiers, and I believe that to be true. It's difficult if not impossible to get that number to 100%, even in an all-volunteer force. I have faith that the vast majority of US forces over there are doing the best job they know how (under extreme conditions and limited resources), and outrage at incidents like this should be used to make that point even stronger. The best we can hope for in this situation is an honest and public investigation, with the soldiers involved being punished for whatever crimes they are proven to have committed. So far this seems to be happening, albeit a bit late. It won't undo the damage, but it will help heal it and serve to prevent it in the future. While I don't subscribe to blindly supporting the troops, I take even more issue with condemning them based on the actions or mistakes of a few. If anything, I would hope that reasons like this would be taken into account more carefully when making decisions on going to war in the first place. Sending troops into heavily populated areas is a very dangerous proposition for all involved, and I'm not sure that was fully realized in planning for this conflict.

06-02-2006, 02:31 PM	#12 (permalink)
Rincewind Join Date: May 2005 Location: Casting useless spells in Oklahoma. Age: 27 Posts: 2,997	Re: Another My Lai? ...And stole their bible. ehh, err, Koran __________________ ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~ No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are. Required Reading for all TG sandboxers

06-02-2006, 02:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
icky Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ottawa Valley Posts: 6,154	Re: Another My Lai? Bad news is ALWAYS best delivered all at once to avoid the perception of one thing happening after another. The story here is not the incident itself, but rather whether someone tried to hide it. Nobody should be surprised at all that the incident happened (assuming it really did happen). __________________ Peace through fear... since 1947!

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