Pacifism and the War - Page 3

**leejo** · 05-30-2006, 03:57 PM

I'd like to know what intellectual dishonesty means to you before I address any of these straw man questions or your assertion that people who don't find the NSA's actions monitoring international calls with terrorists objectionable are like swingers humping some decent man's wife.

Diceman · 05-30-2006, 04:03 PM

If I may interject, I would like to submit my claim of the false dichotomy as highlighting that which is...intellectually casual. Dishonesty implies intent, so I won't make that claim.

Edit: Call me immature, but this analogy of support for the war with sexual inpropriety is cracking me up!

**leejo** · 05-30-2006, 04:14 PM

I think I need an Orange Mocha Frappuccino and a trip to the daye spa.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 05-30-2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I'd like to know what intellectual dishonesty means to you before I address any of these straw man questions or your assertion that people who don't find the NSA's actions monitoring international calls with terrorists is like swingers humping some decent man's wife.

It simply means an individual knows something is wrong with a cognitive process yet continues with that process, irregardless. (<- I am being Intellectually dishonest by using that word. I know it is not truly a proper word but use it anyway. Mainly for the comedic affect.)

Incongruity is a good sign of the state. Hypocrisy is intellectual dishonesty taken to a level such that it becomes obvious to all.

AMosely · 05-30-2006, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I think, per se, it accomplishes the same negative effect - helping the enemy - as pacifism.

I would be willing to argue that much of our agression to date has helped the 'enemy' (multiple terrorist organizations) recruit more easily, and that this helps them far more than a more passive stance, which denies them proof of their insistence that America wishes to destroy Islam. Much to the same extent, further agression all but guarantees that we will face Islamic terrorism for generations to come. This conflict will never be resolved until peaceful means are employed. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a good example of this. Activist groups that bring Palestinian and Israeli youth together in discussions have done far more good for both sides than missile strikes and suicide bombings.

War and peace are both self-serving prophecies.

**leejo** · 05-30-2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

It simply means an individual knows something is wrong with a cognitive process yet continues with that process, irregardless. (<- I am being Intellectually dishonest by using that word. I know it is not truly a proper word but use it anyway. Mainly for the comedic affect.)

Incongruity is a good sign of the state. Hypocrisy is intellectual dishonesty taken to a level such that it becomes obvious to all.

So you really think that applying the principles in Orwell's essay to the current situation is intellectual dishonesty but comparing me to a swinger for my position on the NSA's activities is....what do you call that? Is that hypocracy or do you really believe that?

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 05-30-2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

So you really think that applying the principles in Orwell's essay to the current situation is intellectual dishonesty but comparing me to a swinger for my position on the NSA's activities is....what do you call that? Is that hypocracy or do you really believe that?

Firstly, intellectual dishonasty is an internal state and can only be determined by the individual. Knowbody can know what you are truly thinking. Anytime it is used as a statement it can only refer to the one making a statement. When I made the statement I was trying to say what others in this thread where saying... Speaking out against a war does not logically make a person a pacifist.

Secondly, I compared you to a swinger? I used swingers in a metaphor but don't remember calling you a swinger or comparing you to a swinger.

Are you OK?

Edit... If I offended I am truly sorry for any damage I may have done.

**leejo** · 05-30-2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

Activist groups that bring Palestinian and Israeli youth together in discussions have done far more good for both sides than missile strikes and suicide bombings.

War and peace are both self-serving prophecies.

Those are two huge whoppers.

1) How exactly have activist groups that bring Palestinian and Israeli youth together helped anyone other than by providing the occasional group hug? How many jobs have they created and how many lives have been spared?

2) War and peace are both self-serving prophecies? I don't even begin to understand what this means. If we want peace badly enough the Peace Fairy will make the bad guys change their minds?

Diceman · 05-30-2006, 06:37 PM

I took #2 to be a paraphrasing of von Clauswitz's idea that war is politics, pursued through other means.

**leejo** · 05-30-2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

Firstly, intellectual dishonasty is an internal state and can only be determined by the individual. Knowbody can know what you are truly thinking. Anytime it is used as a statement it can only refer to the one making a statement. When I made the statement I was trying to say what others in this thread where saying... Speaking out against a war does not logically make a person a pacifist.

Secondly, I compared you to a swinger? I used swingers in a metaphor but don't remember calling you a swinger or comparing you to a swinger.

Are you OK?

Edit... If I offended I am truly sorry for any damage I may have done.

Yes I'm fine, thanks. Some of your comments have made my eyebrows fly up though.

Quote:

But even if it does have the same effect, and that is debatable, using that text to support another stance is intellectually dishonest.

That was one, and I still don't see how you jive that statement with what you just posted. Irregardless, I disagree, and I'm not being dishonest or lazy: I think Orwell's words are directly relevant to today's situation.

Quote:

I know you don't mind the extra surveillance but for some it was a shock that you cannot fathom. Just as swingers don't mind the occasional stepping out on a deeply faithful person would be torn apart.

I think is a direct comparison between me and swingers. You compare my not minding extra surveillance to a swinger not minding stepping out on a deeply faithful person who would be torn apart. Am I missing some subtlety of language and you're not really comparing these two things? I am just a caveman after all.

Anyway, back to the point. How should we question our government? Responsibly, and with the understanding that we are in many ways playing a zero sum game with several enemy nations and non-state organizations with clear, violent, anti-western agendas.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 05-30-2006, 06:55 PM

[quote=leejo I think Orwell's words are directly relevant to today's situation.[/QUOTE]

So anybody that speaks out against the war is a pacifist?

**leejo** · 05-30-2006, 07:04 PM

No, I don't think that. I basically agree with what Orwell wrote though.

**CingularDuality** · 05-31-2006, 01:54 AM

To those that believe that the problem with Muslim violence is just about 9/11 and the Middle East, I just wanted to remind everyone of France's recent troubles, along with the uproar over the comic depiction of the Prophet of Islam.

Kerostasis · 05-31-2006, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

This is one of our key differences. Yes, I do feel as though radical Islam would be satisfied to be left alone - US out of Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel out of Palestine. All of the evidence I've seen...does not indicate any desire on the part of Islamic governments or organizations to expand their borders or otherwise wage war on another country with the intent to destroy it.

Just for the record, I am not advocating the dismantling of Israel.

Oh really now? And how exactly do you plan to make peace while Israel still exists? You have read the comments by the President of Iran calling for the complete annihilation of Israel, haven't you?

Its possible, though I don't know how likely, that the Islamic world would be satisfied to make peace with the US, after we withdrew completely from the middle east. However, withdrawing completely means allowing the destruction of Israel, and nothing less. Any solution that leaves Israel standing will not be sufficient to satisfy the terrorist agenda.

I have come to the conclusion that at the end of the conflict, either Israel or the terrorist wing of Islam will have been almost completely annihilated, because as long as both stand, the conflict WON'T end. The question then becomes, which one would we rather have as our neighbors? I for one choose Israel.

Diceman · 05-31-2006, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Irregardless, I disagree, and I'm not being dishonest or lazy: I think Orwell's words are directly relevant to today's situation.

Please elaborate.

Is it your position that opposition to the war in Iraq, regardless of motive, is equivalent to pacifism?
Is it your position that pacifism is equivalent to facism (or whatever form of government your enemy purports to have)?
If so, is your underlying rationale this statement: Failing to assist party A is the same thing as materially assisting party B?

05-30-2006, 03:57 PM	#31 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Pacifism and the War I'd like to know what intellectual dishonesty means to you before I address any of these straw man questions or your assertion that people who don't find the NSA's actions monitoring international calls with terrorists objectionable are like swingers humping some decent man's wife. Last edited by leejo; 05-30-2006 at 04:15 PM.

05-30-2006, 04:03 PM	#32 (permalink)
Diceman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Yellowknife, NT Age: 30 Posts: 986	Re: Pacifism and the War If I may interject, I would like to submit my claim of the false dichotomy as highlighting that which is...intellectually casual. Dishonesty implies intent, so I won't make that claim. Edit: Call me immature, but this analogy of support for the war with sexual inpropriety is cracking me up! __________________ [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1] [ma-c2][taw-c1] Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette: Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due. Treat others as you would have them treat you

05-30-2006, 04:14 PM	#33 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Pacifism and the War I think I need an Orange Mocha Frappuccino and a trip to the daye spa.

05-30-2006, 06:37 PM	#39 (permalink)
Diceman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Yellowknife, NT Age: 30 Posts: 986	Re: Pacifism and the War I took #2 to be a paraphrasing of von Clauswitz's idea that war is politics, pursued through other means. __________________ [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1] [ma-c2][taw-c1] Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette: Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due. Treat others as you would have them treat you

05-30-2006, 06:55 PM	#41 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 40 Posts: 2,861	Re: Pacifism and the War [quote=leejo I think Orwell's words are directly relevant to today's situation.[/QUOTE] So anybody that speaks out against the war is a pacifist? __________________ I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

05-30-2006, 07:04 PM	#42 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Pacifism and the War No, I don't think that. I basically agree with what Orwell wrote though.

05-31-2006, 01:54 AM	#43 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 17,137	Re: Pacifism and the War To those that believe that the problem with Muslim violence is just about 9/11 and the Middle East, I just wanted to remind everyone of France's recent troubles, along with the uproar over the comic depiction of the Prophet of Islam. __________________ Become a supporting member! Buy a Tactical Duck! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

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