DudeMan

you would be looking it up for that reason precisely. you spouted its deffinition, i pulled you on it.

FYI gcse grades aab english.

2 years college grades A A

yeah you obviously know alot.

more skooling cleetus

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

jex

Ok for 1 our intelligence don't know anything as has been proven, right? Secondly you think it's ok to ally with dictatorships if they only do a little bit of torture?

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Jex

jex

Actually I'm not here to piss people off at all. I'm not getting annoyed by posts and it's not my intention to annoy others. But I can't stop people getting annoyed - that's up to them. I'm here for reasonable debate

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Jex

DudeMan

sorry jex you are comming off very patronising, evidentally you say you dont mean to, well ok but thats what is happening.

ok to adress the issue of dictatorships, its a case of the worse evil, i dont know if you have noticed but iran in now under the " POLITICAL MICROSCOPE" it is a case of you cant attack all your enemies all of the time.

now we will see whether the iraqi episode will improve the conditions in the other offending countries because they have seen the fall of baghdad.

i dont know, but i am far more comfortable to tolerate a smaller evil to kill a larger evil.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Fait_Maker

I still have an issue with his use of the term "factual footage". I don't think it should count if it's not all factual.

And for anyone who wants to know specific facts, I'll list a couple of them. If I'm wrong, please point out why and where. [This isn't to you Dudeman, I'm just putting it in my post.]

9/11 claims that Bush arranged for the Bin Ladens to leave the US after the attack and that the FBI was not allowed to interview them.

Richard Clarke admits that he was the one who arranged the flights because it was his level of responsibility, not the President's. It was never even brought to the President. He authorized it and believes it was the right thing to do to this day. That is not shown in the movie at all. The FBI did get to interview the passengers of the flight before take-off. Many of them had extremely detailed questioning.

Moore claims that we invaded Afghanistan in the hopes of building a pipeline by a company called Unocal.

Unocal was interested in building a pipeline in Afghanistan but they met with Clinton, not Bush, in the late 1990's. By 1998, Unocal had pulled out of the deal.

Moore makes the claim that Saudi Arabian interests “have given” $1.4 billion to firms connected to the family and friends of President George W. Bush.

However, $1.18 billion was for a defense company called BDM, owned by the Carlyle Group. While Bush's father, the former president was on an advisory board, he didn't join the group until 5 months after they sold BDM to another defense firm.

President Bush did have a link to Carlyle himself. He was on the board of a company called Caterair, which was owned by Carlyle. That ended when he quit to run for Texas governor, a few months before the first of the Saudi contracts to the unrelated BDM firm was awarded. Also, Bush did not invent in or make profit from Caterair.

We can easily find more of the stuff and what I talk about was in the movie. Does anyone want to debate it? Does anyone want to say I'm making up facts? Does anyone want to post different facts?

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DudeMan

its all good...

interesting facts, very interesting, you see alot of that in British politics too

WHEN PARITES THAT WERE BLAIM PARITES THAT ARE IN POWER

FOR POLICIES THEY SET UP AND CANT BE UNDONE BY TE TIME THE NEW PARTY GETS POWER.....LOL

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Fait_Maker

Oh please. YOU said his cronies made the money off the war, which I may or may not argue. Halliburton is one of Cheney's friends, not Bush. There are however a lot of companies making money off the restructuring of Iraq.

Ender said BUSH made money off his half-truths and offered that quote as proof. The implication was that they were donors to him and they got the contracts because of it. If your implication is simply "people who are or have done business with Bush are making money from the restructure of the war.", I might be able to go with that. But if your implication is that Bush started the war so that his friends could make money from it, I would have to argue that. The facts just do not support that implication.

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Fait_Maker

Fine, screw it. He's not by definition a journalist. He's a movie maker who presented his "documentary" then later said it may not be totally accurate. He admits to creating it to prevent Bush's re-election and now says he doesn't care about the money, download it for free.

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Fait_Maker

Hmm.. Bush never said they were an imminent threat. Sen. Bob Graham, a Democrat, said they were an imminent threat and said that Bush did too. However, if you do a search on google, you will find that Bush never said they were an imminent threat, a threat to be sure, but not an imminent one. Do you think Saddam wasn't a threat?

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Fait_Maker

By definition, Factual footage... Is Moore's documentary factual? The same one that he himself says, may not be so accurate?

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DudeMan

michael moore created a democrat party broadcast. ofcourse because most of what he says is either exadurated or plain bollocks he cant say that

but it is just that

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

CingularDuality

C'mon, guys, let's knock off these petty personal arguments. Some of you are bickering over some pretty trivial stuff and allowing things to get kinda ugly. Lets remember that a certain degree of respect for each other is required in this forum...


EDIT:
I apologize to Dudeman for making light of a joke that was made at his expense. It was immature of me to do so. The ability to spell/type has little impact on the points that he makes and that's why I still read his posts. Despite the fact that I was trying to bring this thread to order using some existing humor, it was wrong for me, as a moderator, to do it using a quote that made fun of his posts.

I'm sorry.

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jex

No but Rumsfeld did. I never said Bush said it in the first place. And so what, just because he didn't say it means nothing. He wasn't denying it either.

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Jex

Zebra

No, he just said they were an immediate, urgent, grave, serious, growing, dangerous, significant threat. His mouthpieces did specifically use the word "imminent" though, not that it really matters.

"There's no question that Iraq was a threat to the people of the United States."
- White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan, 8/26/03

"We ended the threat from Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction."
- President Bush, 7/17/03

Iraq was "the most dangerous threat of our time."
- White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 7/17/03

"Saddam Hussein is no longer a threat to the United States because we removed him, but he was a threat...He was a threat. He's not a threat now."
- President Bush, 7/2/03

"Absolutely."
- White House spokesman Ari Fleischer answering whether Iraq was an "imminent threat," 5/7/03

"We gave our word that the threat from Iraq would be ended."
- President Bush 4/24/03

"The threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction will be removed."
- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 3/25/03

"It is only a matter of time before the Iraqi regime is destroyed and its threat to the region and the world is ended."
- Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke, 3/22/03

"The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder."
- President Bush, 3/19/03

"The dictator of Iraq and his weapons of mass destruction are a threat to the security of free nations."
- President Bush, 3/16/03

"This is about imminent threat."
- White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 2/10/03

Iraq is "a serious threat to our country, to our friends and to our allies."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, 1/31/03

Iraq poses "terrible threats to the civilized world."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, 1/30/03

Iraq "threatens the United States of America."
- Vice President Cheney, 1/30/03

"Iraq poses a serious and mounting threat to our country. His regime has the design for a nuclear weapon, was working on several different methods of enriching uranium, and recently was discovered seeking significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/29/03

"Well, of course he is.”
- White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett responding to the question “is Saddam an imminent threat to U.S. interests, either in that part of the world or to Americans right here at home?”, 1/26/03

"Saddam Hussein possesses chemical and biological weapons. Iraq poses a threat to the security of our people and to the stability of the world that is distinct from any other. It's a danger to its neighbors, to the United States, to the Middle East and to the international peace and stability. It's a danger we cannot ignore. Iraq and North Korea are both repressive dictatorships to be sure and both pose threats. But Iraq is unique. In both word and deed, Iraq has demonstrated that it is seeking the means to strike the United States and our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction."
- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/20/03

"The Iraqi regime is a threat to any American. ... Iraq is a threat, a real threat."
- President Bush, 1/3/03

"The world is also uniting to answer the unique and urgent threat posed by Iraq whose dictator has already used weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands."
- President Bush, 11/23/02

"Saddam Hussein is a threat to America."
- President Bush, 11/3/02

"I see a significant threat to the security of the United States in Iraq."
- President Bush, 11/1/02

"There is real threat, in my judgment, a real and dangerous threat to American in Iraq in the form of Saddam Hussein."
- President Bush, 10/28/02

"The Iraqi regime is a serious and growing threat to peace."
- President Bush, 10/16/02

"There are many dangers in the world, the threat from Iraq stands alone because it gathers the most serious dangers of our age in one place. Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists."
- President Bush, 10/7/02

"The Iraqi regime is a threat of unique urgency."
- President Bush, 10/2/02

"There's a grave threat in Iraq. There just is."
- President Bush, 10/2/02

"This man poses a much graver threat than anybody could have possibly imagined."
- President Bush, 9/26/02

"No terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq."
- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 9/19/02

"Some have argued that the nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent - that Saddam is at least 5-7 years away from having nuclear weapons. I would not be so certain. And we should be just as concerned about the immediate threat from biological weapons. Iraq has these weapons."
- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 9/18/02

"Iraq is busy enhancing its capabilities in the field of chemical and biological agents, and they continue to pursue an aggressive nuclear weapons program. These are offensive weapons for the purpose of inflicting death on a massive scale, developed so that Saddam Hussein can hold the threat over the head of any one he chooses. What we must not do in the face of this mortal threat is to give in to wishful thinking or to willful blindness."
- Vice President Dick Cheney, 8/29/02


To us? No. His ability to attack us was zero. His neighbors must not have seen him as much of a threat either, considering the amount of help they gave.

Zebra

Are you saying the footage he used isn't factual? Is that an actor playing President Bush in the footage or something?