leejo

And? So is holding a free election. Should we knock that off too?

Benny_

Without loading a question, how many leaders/presidents has the US put into power, or removed from power using CIA operatives. I don't know, I'm sure someone will supply an endless torrent of 'facts' to tell me.

I think it is wrong to be paranoid about the connections between the new leader and the CIA, but it is foolish to ignore the fact, CIA puppet anyone? I think this is what Jex is alluding to.

If you don't even entertain the options you cannot possibly make a judgement.

And DM, I think you missed my point, however you take Micheal Moore, without his 'type' you would have a one sided story. With his type you can see both extremes and hopefully end up somewhere in the middle. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see him as trying to swing me politically so much as to open your eyes to things that are happening around you, in his opinion, and make decisions based on that.

Let's be honest, the US (and any other country) is certainly not an innocent little victim in all this. There are reasons they are targets for terrorist attacks, as are the British. In addition, another quote of his taken out of context was the liklehood of terrorism affecting you compared to that of a lightening strike. His point was to understand the furore that was whipped up into an almost blood-lust amongst those countries involved.

IceCold

The difference is that we're not now able to do anything to stop lightning strikes. We can't hunt down a lightning bolt and ensure that it never causes damage ever again...

leejo

That is pure drivel.

H-Hour

Why leejo?

leejo

If I may paraphrase Zoolander, let me answer your question with another question:

What action can a woman take to deserve being beaten to death by her lover?

Now tell me again how British and American citizens deserve terrorism.

USN_Squid

It's not possible to have elections right off the bat. It would be complete chaos. There will be elections in January. Don't you agree there should be a smooth transition to democracy in a place that has NEVER known it?

And my guess is that if they had elections right away people would find some shred of 6 degrees of seperation to say they were fixed, no?

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H-Hour

Benny did not say British and American citizens "deserve" terrorism. He simply said America is not just an innocent little victim - and I agree with that. I certainly don't believe any society deserves terrorism. Nor would I say that America is responsible for creating people who are willing to attack civilians. Please don't polarize his and your posts.

I do believe, however, that the proliferation of terrorism and the terrorists ability to be effective is a result of popular support for terrorism. And while I believe that terrorism and terrorists (in any form) will always exist, I do believe that we (America) can undermine the popular support for terrorism. This is where I question our complete innocence.

We are the dominant super-power in the world. Power corrupts. There have been plenty of sociological experiments that show how our position in a hierarchy alters our perceptions and actions, and how a position at the top can lead people to abuse those below them. Frankly, I think in the last 50 years America has done an amazing job of balancing our place at the top with a respect for other nations. Are we perfect? No. Do we deserve to be attacked? No. Are we innocent of abusing or misusing our power in the world? I don't think so.

To write off any possibility of American blame as "pure drivel" is, to me, not only irresponsible, but a trap of victimhood and a dismissal of our most valuable tool in the fight against terrorism.

I believe America is losing it's cultural and moral dominance in the world. If history is any indication, that means we're on the way out. I don't believe this has to happen, but to prevent it we're going to have to fess up to our complicity in human suffering throughout the world and take steps to regain our cultural and moral dominance.

USN_Squid

All of them.....MUUHAAHAHAHAHAAA

I agree with this for the most part, but I just wish they would stop calling it a documentary. It is his political opinion, a political ad if you will. If you find it entertaining fine. I disagree with his ideas therefore I don't like him getting heaped with misplaced praise and possibly affecting an election.

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leejo

No H, to place blame for criminal murder on anyone but the criminal murderer is fooish and morally wrong.

I love you buddy, but no-one's holding a gun to these terrorists heads and forcing them to lash out. I could walk into a fmr. employer's office who screwed me and open up, but that would just make me a nutty criminal. Same thing here.

I recommend spending less time trying to understand their motivations and more time addressing their capabilities.

H-Hour

Leejo, you have bypassed the entire point of my post.

I never once excuse or atrribute reasonable motivation to terrorists, only to the popular support they have found in many cultures.

leejo

No YOU bypassed the entire point of my post!

If I may quote the Veep who recently had some relevant comments...

Anyway, removing the issues that lend popular support to terrorism is a long-term strategic goal. I think it's a mistake to think spend much time thinking along those lines prematurely. I also urge you to consider which policies actually contribute to terrorism. E.g. did Carter smooching Brez..brez...that Soviet Premier end communism or did Reagan's much maligned policies end communism? Similarly, is terrorism perpetuated when we ( the Yanks and Brits) piss off some folks or when we fail to demonstrate that terrorism has zero chance of succeeding?

DudeMan

ILL AGREE WITH LEEJO DRIVAL, AND FOR ONE REASON,

My country does not deserve terror and you say ok im not saying that but we are not innocent. ok so big whoop roll over bush benny says you are nmot innocent. sorry mate but it is sensationalised "politically correct" CoDS WALLOP you knoow it and i know it.

this also btw is totally off topic from michael moore to which benny i also disagree with you and i know what you were saying then and now.

you think that half truths that sway the uneducated or most affected by tradgedy is a good thing. to Educated people yes ok you MAY be able to see through the BULL however to chilldren teenagers and impressionable youngsters, not quite the same kettle of fish. More importantly those looking to play the balim game because they cant explain what has happened to a loved one dead or looking togrieve through others misery, these are the people that are affected by this sensationalised version of a little bit of the truth.

the only reason he has not said the truth in its entirity, is because it will disagree with his political position and it wont sell movies, im sorry but you only have to look at the way it was sold. jesus man i saw a trailer with the guy who does voice overs for horror movies. dont try and tell me journalism like that is helpful. if you seriously believe that, well there aint much i can say to you..

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

CingularDuality

Well said. Jex, do you have a better suggestion for an interim president until Iraq can have their first election?

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H-Hour

I disagree. I think re-orienting ourselves along those lines holds two strategic advantages. First, it is a show of good faith to many nations that are feeling alienated from America's current strategy. Bringing European and other moderate Mid-East/Eastern countries on board will help legitimize our positions and help sway moderates in cultures that may tacitly or specifically support terrorism. Second, I think we could begin to foster successes for organizations with a more moderate or modern view of their role within the global community (speaking specifically of those within cultures with popular support for terrorism). One of the reasons the more extreme organizations are becoming popular is because they are the only ones able to adequately support cultural (and sometimes state) infrastructure.

That is an important question. I believe to adequately answer the question we have to look at the perspective of what is - not just what is. In many ways, terrorism has already been proven to work. The point of the 9/11 attacks was to disrupt American life. It has succeeded admirably. Terrorism is also designed to polarize opposition and create a backlash that pulls an enemies allies away. It has succeeded in that as well.

By attacking entire cultures militarily, we end up playing their game. We end up handing the victory to them. I believe that, by examining our own role in the global community and learning how to appropriately "attack" terrorism's infrastructures, we can not only avoid their trap, but help foster international good will. In this way, we will be attacking the perception of what is more then what actually is.

We can take a hard-line position as we have, turning the fight into Good vs. Evil between nations and shadowy organizations, a mass conflict of ideology. But by refusing to give creedence to any claims of wrongdoing on our part, we appear stubborn and ignorant in the eyes of internationals, and prove to the terrorists that they have indeed effected our ability to function within international opinions of moderation.