Farenheight 9/11 - Page 6

Fait_Maker · 07-02-2004, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra

People have posted dozens of threads here about Moore over the years. Dozens of threads over what basically amounts to a total of four hours of Moore doing what he does - opinion, propaganda, half-truths, outright lies - whatever you want to call it. I was just curious about why he generates so much interest, but apparently nobody can tell me.

I have no idea. I can only say I personally don't like the guy. I really have no interest in him, although I find this thread fascinating.

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You don't seriously believe Savage and Hannity are anything other than propaganda, do you? They're exactly like Moore, only they put out in a day what he puts out in a year.

And yet you offer nothing.

Fait_Maker · 07-02-2004, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra

Why would it be his job to make the other side's case for them? Documentaries are allowed to have a point of view. Ever seen some of the old documentaries our own government put out? Moore's movies have nothing on "Reefer Madness" when it comes to bias, spin, or half-truths. Or even comedy, for that matter.

It's funny you mention that. Who believes in any documentary that the government puts out? It's almost like they do it to make themselves non-liable, like they would be sued for it.

The difference here, my friend, is people are actually believing in MM's crap and it may even influence the election. You obviously know the the government's documentaries are biased, half-truths, and full of comedy. If you can't see the distinction, nothing more can really be said.

Fait_Maker · 07-02-2004, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra

Bush started a war and his cronies are making a whole lot of (blood?) money off it based on information that really doesn't look any more reliable than Moore's, if you ask me.

Can you please stop making innuendos and generalized statements? You aren't Moore. You don't get that luxury. What specifically did Bush profit from? His cronies? What information was not reliable? Post facts and assertions, not useless generalized statements.

Fait_Maker · 07-02-2004, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebra

All of those would have been great reasons for Reagan not to wholeheartedly support Saddam, but I don't believe any were cited as reasons for our preemptive war on Iraq.

Reagan did what he had to do by picking the lesser of two evils because Jimmy Carter <The Great Appeaser> screwed the leader of Iran and let the Ayatollah move into power. Read up on your history.

**_Ender_** · 07-02-2004, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

Moore is making a lot of money off a documentary that may be only half-truths about this war and Bush's role in it.

Bush has made a lot of money on half truths also...

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Can you call it "blood money"?

In Bush's case.. yes.. in Moore's.. no. Moore is just taking advantage, there is actually people dying for Bush's "cause".

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However, we expect politicians to have a bit of untruth telling.

So we're supposed to hold Moore at a higher level because we expect our politicians to lie? So in other words.. Its ok for Bush to send our troops to war based off of a lie, but its not ok for Moore to lie in a movie based on Bush's lie?

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It goes with the territory and it is actually, at times, a good thing.

How is it a good thing exactly?

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I don't think the American public always needs to know, NOW.

I agree.. to a point. We dont always have to know.. period... but if it involves a war that we're going to have to pay for.. until the day the Earth stands still... then I sort of want to know what we're getting ourselves into and for what reason and if the reason is just.

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When we do know, we broadcast our secrets across public television, like troop positions.

That happend once, and he got kicked out of Iraq for it (thank god).

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I'd rather they lie to us, get the job done, then come back and tell the truth. Media is as much to blame for this as anyone.

Ironic isnt it, that we tell our kids from birth that lieing is bad, yet you dont care if somebody who holds your future in their hands lies to you... maybe we should tell the kids "lieing is bad, unless you want to invade a country"...

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MM has no valid reason to create untruths.

Why doesnt he? Surely if politicans can lie he can also.

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He's made a film that while billed as opinion and not "accurate journalistic work", people expect it to be truthful. If it's anything other than that, it's fiction and should be labeled as such, right next to "Star Wars".

I do agree that it shouldnt be called a "documentary" but he has said that its not accurate... what else do you want? If people believe it then isnt it their own fault?

Fait_Maker · 07-03-2004, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ender_

Bush has made a lot of money on half truths also...

Proof to back up a baseless claim?

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In Bush's case.. yes.. in Moore's.. no. Moore is just taking advantage, there is actually people dying for Bush's "cause".

hyperbole and as Dudeman would say bollocks.

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So we're supposed to hold Moore at a higher level because we expect our politicians to lie? So in other words..

You've taken my words and twisted them for your use. I do expect a politician to lie. 1) That's the way of the world hence the joke "How can you tell a politician is lying" His mouth is moving. 2) We put our politicans in that position. We have to know everything right now, so I believe politicians will lie to put us at ease. Not all lie for that reason and I'm reasonably sure that not all politicians see fit to lying.

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Its ok for Bush to send our troops to war based off of a lie, but its not ok for Moore to lie in a movie based on Bush's lie?

Boy, isn't that begging the question. Who said Bush started a war based on a lie? Do you know something I don't? And since we are begging the question, when did you stop beating your mother?

No, I don't think Moore should make a movie based on lies and call it a documentary. He's taken as a video journalist because that's what he portrays himself to be. A journalist should not report something as fact that is really a lie and then laugh about it going to the bank saying "It's not really accurate", especially if this guy is doing it to influence an election. Personally, I view all political ads that way as well, although most of us know they lie most of the time too.

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How is it a good thing exactly?

As I explained already, to protect our interests because as citizens we demand to be in the know about everything at once and damn the consequences. Can you not see this?

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I agree.. to a point. We dont always have to know.. period... but if it involves a war that we're going to have to pay for.. until the day the Earth stands still... then I sort of want to know what we're getting ourselves into and for what reason and if the reason is just.

If for no other reason, how about humanity? How can we call ourselves a moral people and have all this religious crap that is suppose to be filled with love and compassion and not free slaves. Personally, I hope he continues to other places as well. I would prefere peaceful means, but guys.. these nasties aren't really into peace are they? They are into power and they don't want to give it up.

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That happend once, and he got kicked out of Iraq for it (thank god).

Once.. twice.. who's counting. It's just an example, but didn't it happen in Bush Sr. war too? I bet if we try hard enough we could come up with other examples of the media screwing up the government as they tried to do something good.

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Ironic isnt it, that we tell our kids from birth that lieing is bad, yet you dont care if somebody who holds your future in their hands lies to you... maybe we should tell the kids "lieing is bad, unless you want to invade a country"...

There you go again. Hey.. where are the easter bunny, santa claus, and god since we are talking about lying to our children. Personally, my children have never believed in any of those things. And yes, I want my children to learn that lying is a bad thing until they are old enough to learn when it can be an ok thing. People are way to sensitive to be truthful all the time. You think my wife wants to hear "No, I think you look a little plump in that dress, but wear it anyway, I don't mind"? Don't lecture me on lies. People do it all the time. On income tax, to the police <no, I wasn't speeding>, customers, employees. That doesn't mean that I do or I have to tolerate it from MM. He does not have good intentions when he does it. Again, he did it for money and to sway an election.

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Why doesnt he? Surely if politicans can lie he can also.

How does "he doesn't have a valid reason to" equate to he doesn't have a right to? Sure he can lie and did. Is it right? No. Because he did it for money and to sway an election. If you look back at posts I've made concerning Bush, you will notice that I was the first one wanting to dangle him from the yardarm. However, after considerable time, thought, and examination, I've come to the belief that Bush did what he thought was right and I have to go with that everytime. Did he lie to us? I don't think so. If he did, do I care? The more and more good I see coming out of Iraq, I am starting to believe I wouldn't care. Maybe the ends did justify the means, if he lied.

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I do agree that it shouldnt be called a "documentary" but he has said that its not accurate... what else do you want? If people believe it then isnt it their own fault?

Does the words it's not accurate appear before the movie starts? Has everyone that seen it hear MM say, it's not accurate? NO.

Ok. Let's start a smear campaign against Kerry for the Republicans using outright lies and let's see if the Liberals feel that way.

This scares the crap out of me.. from the NY Daily News

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F9/11 is "a soaring display of American patriotism". ...

And if you don't think people are actually believing this guy...
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/la...ndex.php?id=56

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"I'm going because from what I heard about ('Fahrenheit 9/11'), it fills in a lot of blanks, a lot of questions we've had about the Bush administration," Sorton said.

The documentary assails President Bush's decisions surrounding the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Moore attempts to link the Bush family with Saudi Arabia and blame business interests as the reason for invading Iraq. "Fahrenheit 9/11" includes frank comments from soldiers in Iraq and emotional interviews with families who lost children in the fighting.

Almost all the crowds at the Cameo have applauded the film at the end, with some people giving standing ovations, Kuenzel said. Many have tears in their eyes as they leave the theater.

"I think it's going to open my eyes a little, and that worries me," Sorton said before taking her seat.

Lea Barnes, a Republican, seemed giddy as she and a friend bought tickets Monday.

"I'm not pleased at all about the way things are going" with the war, Barnes said. "I trust Michael Moore. He can be out there a bit, but he's for the common man."

Speaking of lying More Moore lies

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Less than 24 hours after accusing the Walt Disney Company of pulling the plug on his latest documentary in a blatant attempt at political censorship, the film-maker Michael Moore has admitted he knew a year ago that Disney had no intention of distributing it.

**_Ender_** · 07-03-2004, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

Proof to back up a baseless claim?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3231345.stm

"Many of the US firms which won lucrative Iraqi reconstruction contracts are major donors to President George W Bush's political campaigns, according to a new report."

Let me guess, basis liberal propaganda right?

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hyperbole and as Dudeman would say bollocks.

People are getting killed, and Bush is making money off of it... how is that not blood money?

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You've taken my words and twisted them for your use.

Your words "However, we expect politicians to have a bit of untruth telling.". How exactly did I twist them? You said that Moore is a liar then went on to say that we expect our politicians to lie. You're holding Moore to a higher level because of your basis against him.

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As I explained already, to protect our interests because as citizens we demand to be in the know about everything at once and damn the consequences. Can you not see this?

How exactly is lying "protecting our interests"?

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If for no other reason, how about humanity? How can we call ourselves a moral people and have all this religious crap that is suppose to be filled with love and compassion and not free slaves. Personally, I hope he continues to other places as well. I would prefere peaceful means, but guys.. these nasties aren't really into peace are they? They are into power and they don't want to give it up.

Humanity? Morals? This is America son, we have no morals. Just look around you.. we of all people shouldnt be telling others how to live their lives. If the Iraqis wanted so badly to be "free" then why didnt they help themselves. My main problem with this "war for freedom" bullcrap is the fact that the Iraqis did nothing to help themselves.. and now that we (American soldiers) caught the bastard (Saddam) the Iraqis want to put him on trial. WTF did they do? Sat around and bitched that we werent getting their freedom fast enough when we got hundreds of soldiers dying for them (not to mention billions of dollars invested). IMHO, the Iraqis are a bunch of ungrateful pricks who dont deserve freedom... (yeah thats right, I said it) if they wanted it so badly, then they should of done what America did two hundred years ago and fight for it and not just sit back and let somebody else do it for them.

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Once.. twice.. who's counting. It's just an example, but didn't it happen in Bush Sr. war too? I bet if we try hard enough we could come up with other examples of the media screwing up the government as they tried to do something good.

I'm sure its happened many times. They should ban all media from the front lines.. better yet.. ban them from any thing war related. Just let them read the briefs at the end of the day.

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That doesn't mean that I do or I have to tolerate it from MM.

Again, you're holding Moore to a higher standard then everybody else. I personally dont believe in lying. Lying leads to more lies which leads to more lies. Its a never ending thing. The littles thing can come back to bite you. Thats why I'm straight with people and I expect the same thing in return. You talk about morals, yet lie to somebody... what kind of moral is that?

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Does the words it's not accurate appear before the movie starts? Has everyone that seen it hear MM say, it's not accurate? NO.

Does it say it before Star Wars? NO. The fact that its a documentary doesnt mean its real or accurate. And remember, Moore's movies arent really documentaries, just his opinion on things and remember, opinions are like a^^holes, everybodies got one and some of us are one. But if people want to believe what Moore says then let them.. who cares? If you know the "truth" isnt that good enough for you?

Benny_ · 07-03-2004, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

ILL AGREE WITH LEEJO DRIVAL, AND FOR ONE REASON,

My country does not deserve terror and you say ok im not saying that but we are not innocent. ok so big whoop roll over bush benny says you are nmot innocent. sorry mate but it is sensationalised "politically correct" CoDS WALLOP you knoow it and i know it.

Cutting through and reading that a few times, I still don't understand it.

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this also btw is totally off topic from michael moore to which benny i also disagree with you and i know what you were saying then and now.

Fair enough, that's what this forum is all about, but it's not off topic, MM addresses issues with the current political setup which is where this came from, accusations of lying are abound, which I was trying to highlight what his angle was.

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you think that half truths that sway the uneducated or most affected by tradgedy is a good thing.

Which is what I was saying from the other side, the mass hysteria after the attacks, was a media wet dream, which has been discussed in these forums, 'let's drag out a towell head and whoop his ass', no-one here is of that nature, thankfully, but it certainly became an issue due to the media spin - I believe Cing discussed a local example of this before. BUT, MM should inhabit some higher ground and not be dragged into that spin competition?

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to Educated people yes ok you MAY be able to see through the BULL however to chilldren teenagers and impressionable youngsters, not quite the same kettle of fish. More importantly those looking to play the balim game because they cant explain what has happened to a loved one dead or looking togrieve through others misery, these are the people that are affected by this sensationalised version of a little bit of the truth.

Good point, which I'd kinda agree with, but like I said the 9/11 attacks whipped America into a bloodlust which is what one of Moore's points was.

I'd agree that Moore extends/manipulates the truth and it's a shame that he doesn't use his platform to peddle something a little more akin to straight fact.

And yes, DM I can see through all the 'bull', but hey, lets stop him publishing so that the 'innocent children and teenagers' don't become brainwashed. When I last looked it was an 'R' which is adult isn't it? Link

And yes Eternal, my penis is huge

**DudeMan** · 07-03-2004, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eternal

and...and...my penis is bigger than your penis!

this is a pretty silly comment E

its not needed and i dont see this happening, this is a great conversation and noone is upset or slanging at all.

please dont do that

**DudeMan** · 07-03-2004, 10:51 AM

My country does not deserve terror, and you say "ok im not saying that but we are not innocent." ok so big whoop, roll over bush benny says you are nmot innocent. sorry mate but it is sensationalised "politically correct" CoDS WALLOP you knoow it and i know it.

maybe this helps a bit,

i think we are comming towards some kind of middle ground, you at least acknowledge that6 michael moore is spouting crap, although i think you believe his intentions are better than i do.

i believe his intentions are purely Damage the Bush Admin, and make money. im sorry but in the United Kingdom to get a political message across a politician can hold a party broadcast, or better yet, i dont know if the states has it, but Prime minister Question Time is great.

the oposition and people in their party get to grill the PM over issues in his government and they have a debate televised and broken down fro those who (unlike me dont get very involved and shout at the TV screen eerytime Michael Howard Proves how stupid he is) just want to see what came up and how the PM handled it. i think it is a sad statement aboput america that this all needs to be hollywoodised and furhter more making it popular entertainment is accepted.

this is my fundemntal problem, kids are suseptable, please dont tell me you never got an R film.

and more importantly i really think you need to look around because the majority of our societies are not that well educated, and the sensationalised crap is what they eat.

i will say though that it is another statement that the US became Blood Hungry , i tell you one thing, in all te terror attacks we have had in this country blood hungry is what our press stayed away from. i am not a privy to this in the states so ok , however 2 wrongs never make a right.

**DudeMan** · 07-03-2004, 10:56 AM

to ender i am sorry but i dont think i can conduct a conversation with you, the way you call the War Bushs' cause.

no i am sorry by most of what you said i was kind of angry and it will come across. i cant understand how any educated american can think the way you do.

P.S i like your reply Fait, the whole of it, plus the "Bollocks" you almost have it. lol

**USN_Squid** · 07-03-2004, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ender_

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3231345.stm

"Many of the US firms which won lucrative Iraqi reconstruction contracts are major donors to President George W Bush's political campaigns, according to a new report."

Let me guess, basis liberal propaganda right?

I will convert to the Socialist Workers Party and march with you in the next Peace Rally if you can prove to me that these donors never gave money to the other side of the isle.

Corporations give money equally across all political parties. They want to be in good favor with whoever is in power. Do you think Halliburton never gave any money to the Democrat party?

It is Republicans that whomp the Dems in small contributions from individuals. 9 out of the top 13 donors to the Democrat party are huge PACs and Unions. Who has their hand in whos pocket?

Sorry I got slightly off topic, but if that is your proof that Bush is making money off this war....

Hamas and Red China are actively promoting MM's film. No Blood Money there, nope, none at all.

**luna** · 07-03-2004, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender

The fact that its a documentary doesnt mean its real or accurate.

It doesn't?

doc·u·men·ta·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dky-mnt-r)
adj.

Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

**DudeMan** · 07-03-2004, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =luna=

It doesn't?

doc·u·men·ta·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dky-mnt-r)
adj.

Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

oh you got to love the dictionary when someone is spouting nonsense..

P.S

didnt knmow this

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Hamas and Red China are actively promoting MM's film. No Blood Money there, nope, none at all.

but very nice find adds wieght to your argument no end

and i just urge people to look at who is supporting this vid, and you tell me whether michael more is such a great guy

Fait_Maker · 07-03-2004, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ender_

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3231345.stm

"Many of the US firms which won lucrative Iraqi reconstruction contracts are major donors to President George W Bush's political campaigns, according to a new report."

Let me guess, basis liberal propaganda right?

Non Causa Pro Causa. You assume that because they are major donors to GW that they won the lucrative contracts; hence Bush's cronies are making money off the war. However, before you make such a fallacy, shouldn't you prove that it is their link to GW is why they got the contract? Certainly it raises a flag, but by itself is proof only that they won contracts <won implying they did something rather than received because of who they knew> and that they contributed to Bush's campaign. As has been pointed out in previous comments by others, Haliburton was proved to have no wrong doing and won it's contracts legitimately. But we'll ignore that for the sake of your arguement.

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People are getting killed, and Bush is making money off of it... how is that not blood money?

Non sequitur. You still haven't proven that Bush is making money of it.

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Your words "However, we expect politicians to have a bit of untruth telling.". How exactly did I twist them? You said that Moore is a liar then went on to say that we expect our politicians to lie. You're holding Moore to a higher level because of your basis against him.

I'm holding JOURNALISTS to a higher standard because we get our reports from them. They are our window into what is going on in the world. Politicians are not. Every journalist knows to fact check what they hear from a politician and then report what is fact, except Moore apparently.

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How exactly is lying "protecting our interests"?

I've already explained that. You just have failed to read it. I'll not keeping wasting my breath on it.

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Humanity? Morals? This is America son, we have no morals. Just look around you.. we of all people shouldnt be telling others how to live their lives.

Who said we were? I said we should continue our campaign into stopping terrorism and the baseless killing of the people of this planet by dictators who do nothing but take from their people.

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If the Iraqis wanted so badly to be "free" then why didnt they help themselves. My main problem with this "war for freedom" bullcrap is the fact that the Iraqis did nothing to help themselves.. and now that we (American soldiers) caught the bastard (Saddam) the Iraqis want to put him on trial. WTF did they do?

Walk a mile in a man's shoes. Have you ever lived under a ruthless dictator who has proven he has no problem with wiping out your or your family because of your stand against him? As they said in that wonderful movie "A Few Good Men"... "We were supposed to fight for the people who couldn't fight for themselves."

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Sat around and bitched that we werent getting their freedom fast enough when we got hundreds of soldiers dying for them (not to mention billions of dollars invested). IMHO, the Iraqis are a bunch of ungrateful pricks who dont deserve freedom... (yeah thats right, I said it) if they wanted it so badly, then they should of done what America did two hundred years ago and fight for it and not just sit back and let somebody else do it for them.

I don't believe the King of England used chemical weapons on us, not to mention that we were across the ocean and not in his backyard. Our independence was fought at a different time. Would we have to try that now, I doubt we would have been successful. As Dudeman said, I really can't believe that an educated man is bringing up this crap.

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I'm sure its happened many times. They should ban all media from the front lines.. better yet.. ban them from any thing war related. Just let them read the briefs at the end of the day.

I would agree. That would help a lot.

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Again, you're holding Moore to a higher standard then everybody else. I personally dont believe in lying. Lying leads to more lies which leads to more lies. Its a never ending thing. The littles thing can come back to bite you. Thats why I'm straight with people and I expect the same thing in return. You talk about morals, yet lie to somebody... what kind of moral is that?

No, I'm holding all journalists up to a higher standard. Moore just fails to make it. I don't believe in lying either, but I do understand why at times it might be needed.

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Does it say it before Star Wars? NO. The fact that its a documentary doesnt mean its real or accurate. And remember, Moore's movies arent really documentaries, just his opinion on things and remember, opinions are like a^^holes, everybodies got one and some of us are one. But if people want to believe what Moore says then let them.. who cares? If you know the "truth" isnt that good enough for you?

Was Star Wars billed as a documentary? No. Arguem

07-03-2004, 10:51 AM	#85 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: Farenheight 9/11 My country does not deserve terror, and you say "ok im not saying that but we are not innocent." ok so big whoop, roll over bush benny says you are nmot innocent. sorry mate but it is sensationalised "politically correct" CoDS WALLOP you knoow it and i know it. maybe this helps a bit, i think we are comming towards some kind of middle ground, you at least acknowledge that6 michael moore is spouting crap, although i think you believe his intentions are better than i do. i believe his intentions are purely Damage the Bush Admin, and make money. im sorry but in the United Kingdom to get a political message across a politician can hold a party broadcast, or better yet, i dont know if the states has it, but Prime minister Question Time is great. the oposition and people in their party get to grill the PM over issues in his government and they have a debate televised and broken down fro those who (unlike me dont get very involved and shout at the TV screen eerytime Michael Howard Proves how stupid he is) just want to see what came up and how the PM handled it. i think it is a sad statement aboput america that this all needs to be hollywoodised and furhter more making it popular entertainment is accepted. this is my fundemntal problem, kids are suseptable, please dont tell me you never got an R film. and more importantly i really think you need to look around because the majority of our societies are not that well educated, and the sensationalised crap is what they eat. i will say though that it is another statement that the US became Blood Hungry , i tell you one thing, in all te terror attacks we have had in this country blood hungry is what our press stayed away from. i am not a privy to this in the states so ok , however 2 wrongs never make a right. __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

07-03-2004, 10:56 AM	#86 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: Farenheight 9/11 to ender i am sorry but i dont think i can conduct a conversation with you, the way you call the War Bushs' cause. no i am sorry by most of what you said i was kind of angry and it will come across. i cant understand how any educated american can think the way you do. P.S i like your reply Fait, the whole of it, plus the "Bollocks" you almost have it. lol __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

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