Smoking Ban - Page 6

**CingularDuality** · 06-30-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostintheShell

^^^This is what I was saying as well.

I can understand if the employer maintained the business as a smoking establishement and every employee was chosen specifically because they smoked, and thusly the patrons could smoke as well. No one would be harmed worse then they were already harming themselves. (Perhaps unless you consider that even an avid smoker may also not want to be exposed for 8 hours+ to second hand smoke on the job either.)

But you guys are ignoring the fact that freedom is cherished in our society. Aren't there other solutions? What about an airtight smoking section? What about a super high tech ventilation system?

My point is that laws like this are infringing on the freedoms of business owners, while ignoring the actual issue (second hand smoke, as opposed to smokers).

**leejo** · 06-30-2006, 03:07 PM

Honestly y'all, you're only saying this because you smoke. It's like how you instantly stop caring about the drinking age once you're 21. You'll stand in the rain outside your own home to smoke, freeze your nads off in the winter to smoke, give up...what? about $7,500 annually, if not more, to smoke.

Imagine your disdain for someone who spent that much money on any other addiction annually! What a waste!

Maybe there's an urgent constitutional issue here that I'm not seeing, and maybe smokers are the last great freedom fighters in this country, but having smoked, and having quit, it looks like slow, stinky suicide.

One thing that struck me about smoking was how all of us smokers on break outside the office would talk about one topic more often than any other: quitting.

I know it's tough, but quit. It's like going from living in black and white to full color. You just don't know how much better you feel. There's also the relief of not dreading being told that you've stupided yourself out of your children's wedding, grandchildren, 30 years of life.

Legislation like this will help you live by helping you quit.

**TheFeniX** · 06-30-2006, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Honestly y'all, you're only saying this because you smoke. It's like how you instantly stop caring about the drinking age once you're 21. You'll stand in the rain outside your own home to smoke, freeze your nads off in the winter to smoke, give up...what? about $7,500 annually, if not more, to smoke.

Maybe if you're paying 7 bucks for a pack of smokes. Even at the "high" volume of one pack a day, you're looking at around $1000 at $3.00 a pack. If that sounds like a lot, you haven't considered what you probably pay for toilet paper, razors, and other household items.

Quote:

Imagine your disdain for someone who spent that much money on any other addiction annually! What a waste!

I probably spend more than that on alcohol a year, and I'm not even addicted to that.

Quote:

Maybe there's an urgent constitutional issue here that I'm not seeing, and maybe smokers are the last great freedom fighters in this country, but having smoked, and having quit, it looks like slow, stinky suicide.

Yea, and the drinking I do on the weekends could destroy my liver and all the cheeseburgers I cram down during the week could kill me too. It's not limited to just smoking.

Quote:

One thing that struck me about smoking was how all of us smokers on break outside the office would talk about one topic more often than any other: quitting.

I used it more to vent about quitting my job.... hehe.

Quote:

I know it's tough, but quit. It's like going from living in black and white to full color. You just don't know how much better you feel. There's also the relief of not dreading being told that you've stupided yourself out of your children's wedding, grandchildren, 30 years of life.

Both my grandparents lived to the ages of 80 and 85. My grandfather died from a combination of things, but his drinking was the big issue. My grandma had a stroke. From speaking with my grandma, I'm debating whether she even wanted to stay alive. She was bored as Hell all the time. Too bad she wasn't a gamer, I'm never bored like that.

I could die a horrible death laying on a bed unable to breath from emphazema (sp). I could also get hit by a truck today while driving home. Like I said, people don't think about issues that may crop up 40 years from now.

Quote:

Legislation like this will help you live by helping you quit.

It's not the government's job to tell me what to do to prolong my life. It's mine to destroy or save. I'm over the age of 18, and I have the faculties to decide how I want to spend my life. I'm in the process right now of cutting down my cigarette intake, but that's my choice. I'm making it because I'm tired of smoking, not because the government tells me I have to or my boss says I have to.

The choices you make for yourself in life are the best you ever will make. Someone telling you that you HAVE to do it cheapens that choice.

I don't want legislation to force me to wear a seatbelt (even though this law saves lives, I don't agree with it), a helmet, not eat fatty foods, not play contact sports, etc.

SmokingTarpan · 06-30-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Honestly y'all, you're only saying this because you smoke.

Not sure if you saw it earlier, but the first post of mine in this topic stated that I don't smoke. Never have. This legislation is very silly, in my opinion.

Quote:

Legislation like this will help you live by helping you quit.

Let's make a law that the only thing you're only allowed to eat/drink is a gruel consisting of the exact amount of nutrients and vitamins that you need to maintain the optimal weight for your body structure. It will help you live.

Honestly, do you think that the non-adolescent smokers out there don't realize smoking is bad for them? I had a friend of mine that I used to tease all the time about her smoking. We actually got onto the topic one day and in the talk she said, "Smokers know it's bad for us- we just don't care." She eventually quit, and not because she was worried for her health; she got tired of smelling like smoke, and lived around mostly non-smokers. As far as quitting goes, you either have the will deep down inside or you don't. The people I've known that quit something addicting (drugs, alcohol, pong, whathaveyou) didn't quit because it was banned, they quit because they absolutely wanted to change their life for the better. If outlawing something made people quit, I should think that we wouldn't have drug addicts, eh?

Buck Fush · 06-30-2006, 04:41 PM

Not that I care if someone wants to ruin their own life, but check the statistics, an awful lot of people quit smoking when a ban is instituted. The Colorado Quit Line had to increase their staff by 15% to handle the increased load.

**TheFeniX** · 06-30-2006, 04:52 PM

I've never understood this stigma about smokers. It's socially acceptable to publicly lambast a smoker. Even in this thread, people have been making allusions that smoking is a stupid habit and should be outright banned. Although no one has said directly: "You're stupid for smoking," the stigma is apparant.

Yet, if I tell a fat person that "You need to put down that cheeseburger" or "Maybe you shouldn't have chocolate cake for dessert," I've just commited some huge social mistake and will most likely become a pariah. Watching a morbidly obese person cram down burgers and fries at the local fast food joint makes me physically more nauseous than smelling second-hand smoke ever could.

Further, as I've brought up before, hearing a wailing child drives my stress level through the roof, and almost immediately gives me a headache. Why is it unacceptable for me to ask them to leave, or strap a gag on their child?

I mean, Hell, I'm allergic to perfume to the extent that large doses (like a lot of girls pile on at bars) will make me HAVE to leave the general area or I can't breath. Maybe I should just throw a huge fit about it. Or maybe I should just do what I always do and move on and not associate with those kinds of people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Fush

Not that I care if someone wants to ruin their own life, but check the statistics, an awful lot of people quit smoking when a ban is instituted. The Colorado Quit Line had to increase their staff by 15% to handle the increased load.

And here's another, even while I'm attempting to check my post for spelling and grammar erros. It's this same stigma: smokers are "ruining their lives." It's unacceptable to say this to an obese person in a public place.

I mean, alcohol was ruining everyone's lives in the early 20th century: prohibition sure put a stop to that.

**leejo** · 06-30-2006, 05:02 PM

I'm not calling anyone stupid. I used to smoke. I'm very glad that I quit because I feel so much better. I don't think we should legislate away your right to smoke, although I don't mind litigating away companies' right to profit from your slow death and current impairment.

I'm simply suggesting that your addiction is affecting your thinking here, and you are rationalizing dangerous behavior by calling it "freedom". You're addicted, so of course you defend your addiction.

Buck Fush · 06-30-2006, 05:32 PM

OK, in the first place, there is evidence that SOME obesity is caused by a VIRUS. There is evidence that SOME obesity is caused by genetics. Show me even one study that concludes that smoking is not an active choice and I'll concede your point.

A fat person eating in a restaurant does not pose a general health risk to those around him/her. The fat person next to me can eat all s/he wants and I don't gain an ounce. Therefore, the fat person can exercise their right to be fat and not impose on my right to not be fat. As soon as I start gaining weight based on what YOU eat, expect there to be legislation to control that.

Consider this: Only 23% of Americans are smokers. There is no evidence to show that smokers also tend to be drinkers, so we can assume from this statistic that only 23% of drinkers are smokers.(Based on an assumption, only my opinion.) For those who live where smoking is still allowed in bars, how many non-smoking bars do you know of? Are 75% of the bars in your home town non-smoking? I guess not.

A question for you smokers; When is the last time that you went to a non-smoking bar? Were you invited there by a non-smoker?

A question for you non-smokers; When is the last time you went to a smoking bar? Were you invited there by a smoking friend?

I believe you'll find that smokers only attend a non-smoking bar because of a company function or because they were invited by a non-smoking friend, but otherwise will always choose a smoking bar. Non-smokers might prefer a non-smoking environment, but aren't going to rule out smoking establishments. This is why the majority sometimes needs to pass legislation to impose their will on the minority.

Please enjoy your cigarette, but allow me to enjoy not having one. It's my choice also.

http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4731

**TheFeniX** · 06-30-2006, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I'm simply suggesting that your addiction is affecting your thinking here, and you are rationalizing dangerous behavior by calling it "freedom". You're addicted, so of course you defend your addiction.

"Appeal to motive" much?

By this line of reasoning, being a proponent of gay marriage and women's right: I must be a lesbian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Fush

OK, in the first place, there is evidence that SOME obesity is caused by a VIRUS. There is evidence that SOME obesity is caused by genetics. Show me even one study that concludes that smoking is not an active choice and I'll concede your point.

"Some?" So, that completely invalidates my point because "some" people may be overweight for reasons beyond their control? Not really.

Quote:

A fat person eating in a restaurant does not pose a general health risk to those around him/her. The fat person next to me can eat all s/he wants and I don't gain an ounce. Therefore, the fat person can exercise their right to be fat and not impose on my right to not be fat. As soon as I start gaining weight based on what YOU eat, expect there to be legislation to control that.

My original statement was in reference to people claiming smokers cost tax payers in the form of medical bills.

Quote:

Consider this: Only 23% of Americans are smokers. There is no evidence to show that smokers also tend to be drinkers, so we can assume from this statistic that only 23% of drinkers are smokers.(Based on an assumption, only my opinion.) For those who live where smoking is still allowed in bars, how many non-smoking bars do you know of? Are 75% of the bars in your home town non-smoking? I guess not.

So, there has to be a 1 to 1 ratio of non-smoking bars to smoking bars for there not to be a problem?

Quote:

A question for you smokers; When is the last time that you went to a non-smoking bar? Were you invited there by a non-smoker?

A couple of weeks ago, but they had a patio with a stocked bar, so I just hung out there: Problem solved.

Quote:

A question for you non-smokers; When is the last time you went to a smoking bar? Were you invited there by a smoking friend?

I would assume they were more concerned about the drinking than the smoking.

Quote:

I believe you'll find that smokers only attend a non-smoking bar because of a company function or because they were invited by a non-smoking friend, but otherwise will always choose a smoking bar. Non-smokers might prefer a non-smoking environment, but aren't going to rule out smoking establishments. This is why the majority sometimes needs to pass legislation to impose their will on the minority.

So, because some non-smokers will go to a smoking-allowed bar, we should ban smoking?

Quote:

Please enjoy your cigarette, but allow me to enjoy not having one. It's my choice also.

Yea, you don't have to go to a bar.

**leejo** · 06-30-2006, 08:45 PM

Appeal to motive exactly. I'm telling you flat out that you're addicted to smoking, and therefore anything you have to say about smoking is complete bs and nearly 100% the addiction talking. Next time you're standing in the rain hotboxing one down, think about this brief, sad, discussion of logic.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and lord knows I walked in your shoes for 15 years. But smoking is an addiction and it affects every part of your life from the moment you wake to the moment you go to sleep. In any given hour, you're either smoking or thinking about smoking for what, half of it? 25%?

**CingularDuality** · 07-01-2006, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I'm not calling anyone stupid. I used to smoke. I'm very glad that I quit because I feel so much better. I don't think we should legislate away your right to smoke, although I don't mind litigating away companies' right to profit from your slow death and current impairment.

I'm simply suggesting that your addiction is affecting your thinking here, and you are rationalizing dangerous behavior by calling it "freedom". You're addicted, so of course you defend your addiction.

Why do you keep saying this? I think that most of the smokers here have already stated that they don't smoke indoors even when it's legal.

Quote:

Appeal to motive exactly. I'm telling you flat out that you're addicted to smoking, and therefore anything you have to say about smoking is complete bs and nearly 100% the addiction talking. Next time you're standing in the rain hotboxing one down, think about this brief, sad, discussion of logic.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and lord knows I walked in your shoes for 15 years. But smoking is an addiction and it affects every part of your life from the moment you wake to the moment you go to sleep. In any given hour, you're either smoking or thinking about smoking for what, half of it? 25%?

Whoa... I'll admit that I enjoy lighting one up, but it sure doesn't dominate my life in the manner you describe. I smoke between a half pack and a pack a day, it depends on whether or not I'm outside or whether I'm busy with other things. You sound like you really had some serious problems when you smoked. I'm glad that you quit. What a horrible life that must've been...

**CingularDuality** · 07-01-2006, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Fush

For those who live where smoking is still allowed in bars, how many non-smoking bars do you know of?

Here it's illegal to smoke in a bar in the city of Dallas. Outside the city, it's perfectly legal to puff away. Small bars inside the city limits closed left and right in the year after the ban. The only bars that retained their business in Dallas were parts of larger businesses (restaurant, dance club, hotel, etc...), or simply continued to allow smoking.

I've been to exactly one bar (not counting restaurants) in Dallas since the ban, and they continued to hand out ashtrays after the ban, so I can't comment on much else...

**leejo** · 07-01-2006, 03:44 PM

I smoked about half a pack to a pack a day too Cing. In retrospect, I'm able to see more clearly the degree to which smoking influenced every aspect of my life.

**TheFeniX** · 07-03-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Appeal to motive exactly. I'm telling you flat out that you're addicted to smoking, and therefore anything you have to say about smoking is complete bs and nearly 100% the addiction talking.

Appeal to Motive is a fallacy, hence: it detracts from your arguement. It doesn't make it for you.

Quote:

Next time you're standing in the rain hotboxing one down, think about this brief, sad, discussion of logic.

I'll think about it, but not in the way you might think.

Quote:

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and lord knows I walked in your shoes for 15 years. But smoking is an addiction and it affects every part of your life from the moment you wake to the moment you go to sleep. In any given hour, you're either smoking or thinking about smoking for what, half of it? 25%?

First off: no. Working at my old job, I was concerned with getting my work done. In fact, towards the end when I was going to quit, I was so busy I didn't even think about smoking till we left for lunch. Besides, that has nothing to do with the issue.

We had to go to a non-smoking bowling alley Saturday night. Did I care? No, I was there to bowl, I can go without a cigarette if I need to. Granted, by the time I left, I was extremely pissed, but only because the 16 year-old "we came here to be loud and destroy the bowling lanes" crowd wasn't kicked out after curfew went into effect.

It's funny though, because after reading a few arguements on another board (with some real good evidence like what GITS postes and with arguements not based off fallacies), I've changed my stance on this issue. I'm not really FOR the ban, but I think it's good that's it going into effect. The only thing I'm really hoping for is that many establishments learn and build balconies or outside areas for smokers to go (which many bars I go to already have).

**GhostintheShell** · 07-03-2006, 06:09 PM

Ok, now that we have you that far....I'll give you some examples of where its illegal to smoke in Toronto and some in Ontario generally.

All City parks. (kids playing, sports events etc.).
All publicly owned city properties indoors and outdoors.
Patio's at bars if they are covered.
All workplaces, including company owned vehicles whether or not they are driven only by a smoking individual. ie. tractor trailer's, cabs, couriers

06-30-2006, 03:07 PM	#77 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,523	Re: Smoking Ban Honestly y'all, you're only saying this because you smoke. It's like how you instantly stop caring about the drinking age once you're 21. You'll stand in the rain outside your own home to smoke, freeze your nads off in the winter to smoke, give up...what? about $7,500 annually, if not more, to smoke. Imagine your disdain for someone who spent that much money on any other addiction annually! What a waste! Maybe there's an urgent constitutional issue here that I'm not seeing, and maybe smokers are the last great freedom fighters in this country, but having smoked, and having quit, it looks like slow, stinky suicide. One thing that struck me about smoking was how all of us smokers on break outside the office would talk about one topic more often than any other: quitting. I know it's tough, but quit. It's like going from living in black and white to full color. You just don't know how much better you feel. There's also the relief of not dreading being told that you've stupided yourself out of your children's wedding, grandchildren, 30 years of life. Legislation like this will help you live by helping you quit.

06-30-2006, 04:41 PM	#80 (permalink)
Buck Fush Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 601	Re: Smoking Ban Not that I care if someone wants to ruin their own life, but check the statistics, an awful lot of people quit smoking when a ban is instituted. The Colorado Quit Line had to increase their staff by 15% to handle the increased load.

06-30-2006, 05:02 PM	#82 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,523	Re: Smoking Ban I'm not calling anyone stupid. I used to smoke. I'm very glad that I quit because I feel so much better. I don't think we should legislate away your right to smoke, although I don't mind litigating away companies' right to profit from your slow death and current impairment. I'm simply suggesting that your addiction is affecting your thinking here, and you are rationalizing dangerous behavior by calling it "freedom". You're addicted, so of course you defend your addiction.

06-30-2006, 05:32 PM	#83 (permalink)
Buck Fush Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 601	Re: Smoking Ban OK, in the first place, there is evidence that SOME obesity is caused by a VIRUS. There is evidence that SOME obesity is caused by genetics. Show me even one study that concludes that smoking is not an active choice and I'll concede your point. A fat person eating in a restaurant does not pose a general health risk to those around him/her. The fat person next to me can eat all s/he wants and I don't gain an ounce. Therefore, the fat person can exercise their right to be fat and not impose on my right to not be fat. As soon as I start gaining weight based on what YOU eat, expect there to be legislation to control that. Consider this: Only 23% of Americans are smokers. There is no evidence to show that smokers also tend to be drinkers, so we can assume from this statistic that only 23% of drinkers are smokers.(Based on an assumption, only my opinion.) For those who live where smoking is still allowed in bars, how many non-smoking bars do you know of? Are 75% of the bars in your home town non-smoking? I guess not. A question for you smokers; When is the last time that you went to a non-smoking bar? Were you invited there by a non-smoker? A question for you non-smokers; When is the last time you went to a smoking bar? Were you invited there by a smoking friend? I believe you'll find that smokers only attend a non-smoking bar because of a company function or because they were invited by a non-smoking friend, but otherwise will always choose a smoking bar. Non-smokers might prefer a non-smoking environment, but aren't going to rule out smoking establishments. This is why the majority sometimes needs to pass legislation to impose their will on the minority. Please enjoy your cigarette, but allow me to enjoy not having one. It's my choice also. http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4731

06-30-2006, 08:45 PM	#85 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,523	Re: Smoking Ban Appeal to motive exactly. I'm telling you flat out that you're addicted to smoking, and therefore anything you have to say about smoking is complete bs and nearly 100% the addiction talking. Next time you're standing in the rain hotboxing one down, think about this brief, sad, discussion of logic. I'm not trying to pick a fight, and lord knows I walked in your shoes for 15 years. But smoking is an addiction and it affects every part of your life from the moment you wake to the moment you go to sleep. In any given hour, you're either smoking or thinking about smoking for what, half of it? 25%?

07-01-2006, 03:44 PM	#88 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,523	Re: Smoking Ban I smoked about half a pack to a pack a day too Cing. In retrospect, I'm able to see more clearly the degree to which smoking influenced every aspect of my life.

07-03-2006, 06:09 PM	#90 (permalink)
GhostintheShell Join Date: May 2003 Location: Guelph, Ontario Age: 37 Posts: 963	Re: Smoking Ban Ok, now that we have you that far....I'll give you some examples of where its illegal to smoke in Toronto and some in Ontario generally. All City parks. (kids playing, sports events etc.). All publicly owned city properties indoors and outdoors. Patio's at bars if they are covered. All workplaces, including company owned vehicles whether or not they are driven only by a smoking individual. ie. tractor trailer's, cabs, couriers __________________ Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter. Ernest Hemingway, "On the Blue Water," Esquire, April 1936

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