CingularDuality

Asking for reasonable accommodations in public areas is nothing like asking for money. That's ridiculous...

If you went to a street fair and had a giant turkey leg and some funnel cake, would you not be upset if there were no trash receptacles to be found anywhere? I'm not saying that littering is then justified, but I think that it justifies a request for trashcans...

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Santa

I dont have anything against smokers because they may die early or any of that. If it makes them happy while they are alive, more power to em. If they want to quit at some point, help em out. Its their choice whatever they do, and nobody else should have a say in it.

However, since smoking can harm other people either health related (if second hand smoke is actually real) or simply because non-smokers think its disgusting, the smoker should be courteous enough to smoke away from other people that dont like it.

Im for banning smoking in public places, but in privately owned businesses it should be up to the business owner to ban smoke, not ban it, or setup smoking only areas. Whatever he wants and whatever he think will help his business is up to him, so long as its all legal.

To go off on a tangent, i dont understand how the government decides what substances are legal and which are illegal. Why is smoking tobacco, a highly addictive cancer causing killer, legal when cannabis, which is also generally smoked is not addictive and therefore much less of a killer, illegal? Alcohol and tobacco cause approximately 500,000 deaths every year from health problems, while marajuana causes 0 deaths attributed to health problems. Sure, you might get high, drive and crash into somebody, but alcohol does the same thing and is legal. I know tons of people (and im admittely one of them) that smoke cannabis in moderation and dont have any side effects from it other than obviously when smoking it (But those side effects are not of the violent nature like alchohol, and you are aware of yourself at the time). Seems extremely arbitrary how the government chooses which substances are and are not legal.

Switchcraft

I'm curious as to what makes you think cannabis is non-addictive and causes "0 deaths attributed to health problems."

1) I know several people who have smoked marijuana regularly since high school in the 60s. They cough up black phlegm. One has lung cancer. The tar you find in your pipe doesn't magically avoid your lungs. Saying otherwise is silly.

2) You risk jail-time in order to smoke marijuana. If that's not a sign of addiction, I don't know what is.

Santa

1) Perhaps 0 was a far fetched number in terms of all deaths, but 0 have died from overdose. The number of deaths from anything other than overdose is staggeringly low and the chances of developing any health problems from smoking it 2-3 times a year (like i do) are miniscule at best. I wouldnt be surprised if those people you referenced also smoked something else.

2) Its not much of a risk if you know what you are doing and dont deal. Pot is about as addicting as chocolate chip cookies. If you really like chocolate chip cookies, you are going to eat a lot of them if you dont have self control. If you really like pot and dont have any self control, you'll smoke that a lot. But you are not physically addicted like tobacco would do to you.

Here is a list of interesting facts about marijuana smoking and tobacco smoking taken from this website:

* Marijuana smokers generally don't chain smoke, and so they smoke less. (Marijuana is not physically addictive like tobacco.) The more potent marijuana is, the less a smoker will use at a time.
* Tobacco contains nicotine, and marijuana doesn't. Nicotine may harden the arteries and may be responsible for much of the heart disease caused by tobacco. New research has found that it may also cause a lot of the cancer in tobacco smokers and people who live or work where tobacco is smoked. This is because it breaks down into a cancer causing chemical called `N Nitrosamine' when it is burned (and maybe even while it is inside the body as well.)
* Marijuana contains THC. THC is a bronchial dilator, which means it works like a cough drop and opens up your lungs, which aids clearance of smoke and dirt. Nicotine does just the opposite; it makes your lungs bunch up and makes it harder to cough anything up.
* There are benefits from marijuana (besides bronchial dilation) that you don't get from tobacco. Mainly, marijuana makes you relax, which improves your health and well-being.
* Scientists do not really know what it is that causes malignant lung cancer in tobacco. Many think it may be a substance known as Lead 210. Of course, there are many other theories as to what does cause cancer, but if this is true, it is easy to see why NO CASE OF LUNG CANCER RESULTING FROM MARIJUANA USE ALONE HAS EVER BEEN DOCUMENTED, because tobacco contains much more of this substance than marijuana.
* Marijuana laws make it harder to use marijuana without damaging your body. Water-pipes are illegal in many states. Filtered cigarettes, vaporizers, and inhalers have to be mass produced, which is hard to arrange `underground.' People don't eat marijuana often because you need more to get as high that way, and it isn't cheap or easy to get (which is the reason why some people will stoop to smoking leaves.) This may sound funny to you -- but the more legal marijuana gets, the safer it is.

The overall point im trying to make is that smoking cannabis is better for your health (relativly better. There isnt enough research to show that its "good" for your health) than smoking tobacco. Yet the one thats better for your health is the one that is illegal. This is probably getting a bit too off topic though.

leejo

Are you saying that tax-payer-provided trashcans are like needles for IV drugs?

And another solution that seems to be gaining legs is to make smoking outside illegal. Then, if you want to smoke yourself to death, you can do it at your house in your air using ashtrays you buy.

SmokingTarpan

I've heard about this, and frankly I think the people who thought of it need to be shot in the knees. So it would be illegal to smoke outside because it could harm other people's health, but nevermind the black smoke belching from the truck going down the road? Rediculous. Let's work on a real problem, I say.

Then again, I suppose none of this will matter when we're all wearing the same uniform and taking the same thought-supressing drugs in a century or two. We'll all be one big happy, healthy hive community. :P

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leejo

Wow dude you need to smoke something.

SmokingTarpan

I'm quitting my morning donuts. Sometimes I'm a bit edgy.

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Buck Fush

Cool. Someone else brought it up, not me. As Mike Rosen, a radio personality here in Colorado says, I'm going to tell you where I stand before I tell you where I sit. I don't believe that any narcotic substance should be illegal, but I do believe that you should be held accountable for your actions while under their influence.

Switchcraft, I challenge you to show evidence of cannabinol related PHSYICAL addiction or direct (Meaning not a car accident while under the influence) deaths caused by cannabinol. You can't, because there is none, save an allergic reaction here and there.

Are you aware of what an LD50 rating is? Basically it represents the toxicity of a chemical. Higher LD50s are less toxic.

Here are the LD50's for some common drugs: (I always took the highest/least toxic rating.)
Name / LD50 / Amount Needed to Kill 150lb(68kg) man.
Heroin / 57 mg/kg / 3.876g
Cocaine / 95.1 mg/kg / 6.646g
MDMA (Ecstasy) / 97 mg/kg / 6.596g
Nicotine / 140 mg/kg / 9.520g
Caffeine / 320 mg/kg / 21.760g
Ibuprofen(Advil) / 434 mg / 29.512g
cannabinol / 1270 mg/kg / 86.360g
Aspirin / 1750 mg/kg / 119.000g
Acetamidophenol (Tylenol) / 1944 mg/kg / 132.192g

There are several places on the net to look up MSDS sheets, please feel free to check my facts. So which of these drugs do you think looks closer scientifically to what most consider "hardcore" drugs? Looks to me like nicotine is only slightly removed from the likes of cocaine and MDMA yet cannabinol looks as harmless as what a 12 year old can purchase over the counter at any drug store in the country.

There IS a lethal does of cannabinol, but man that would be one big spleef. A little over 3oz actually. Which would have a street value of around $1000. And that's only if the LD50 is calculated based on the weight of the entire plant. Most of what I've read indicates that that would be the weight of the cannabinol alone which only accounts for 0.49% of the dried weight of cannabis. If this is the case, then it would take over 600oz of dried product to kill a 150lb man. I'll let you do the math on that one.

Perhaps you wish to ignore the recent long term study that proved that even chronic long-term use of cannabis does not cause cancer. As a matter of fact, although the researcher stopped short of presenting it as a finding, there was some evidence that chronic use actually had some protective qualities.

Oh, and let me repeat this. SMOKING MARIJUANNA DOES NOT CAUSE LUNG CANCER!!! If your friend who is a long time smoker has lung cancer, he got it someplace else. And I also don't know any smokers(who aren't also cigarette smokers) that cough up any color of phlegm.

/endofftopicrant

Root

I have no direct experience of this, but my *understanding* is that one puts tobacco in with the narcotic. That would explain part or all of his friends lung cancer. Baroness Susan Greenfield is a world class expert on the brain, and she's done a lot of studies into the effects of drugs, including marijuanna. This DOES cause all sorts of nerological problems, and is very serious. Further, is DOES lead to harder drugs, which often goes hand-in-hand with crime, such as burglary. It's disgusting that the stuff is now legal in the UK. It should carry a mandatory, hard labour, prison sentance. Unfortunately, that would be a breach of European Criminal Rights, and we must all do everything in our power to procted those.

Second hand smoke does kill. Smoking in the presence of someone else should be something like attempted murder. Smoking in the presence of a child should be an open and shut case of child abuse. If people want to commit suicide in the privacy of their own home, that's fine, unless there's a law in your state against attempted suicide (which used to be the law in the UK).

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leejo

My guess is that the population is skewed in the studies that show prolonged marijuana use is neurologically damaging, but I'm not an expert. Anyway, since pot is illegal, people who smoke for a long time are, I'm guessing, different from the population were it as legal as cigarettes. There's the not-so-daring types who'd smoke only prior to the quarterly love-making session with the wife. There are the types who chain smoke cigarettes and pickle their livers and sneer at people who smoke pot. Citizens who choose that passing drug tests that their employers demand is more important than getting high.

So you're only sampling a group that is measurably more hard-core than the group you'd be testing were it legal. One might find that average adult smoking a legal drug used occasionally, responsibly and with few measurable long-term neurological effects. Maybe a study in Holland or Canada in a few years might shed a little more light.

CingularDuality

The ultimate gateway drug:


Think about it... Just about every single hard drug user on this planet started out with milk. Milk not only leads to harder drugs, but also to a life of crime. A recent study showed that 99.9995% of incarcerated people WORLDWIDE started out with milk before beginning their life of crime.

It's horrible. Stop the madness. Ban milk.

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

CingularDuality

No, I was referring to ashtrays for smokers, ESPECIALLY in specific smoking areas.

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Root

I don't get it. You're the only person employed in law enforcement that I've ever heard propose something so ridiculous. I was under the impression that we're not allowed to make attacks on each other like that.

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Santa

Correct me if im wrong, but i think he was trying to point out that the viewpoint that marajuana leads to harder drugs makes as much sense as milk leading to harder drugs. Generally marajuana is used by the very casual drug user because it attracts those that dont want to get addicted, and those that just want to relax from time to time. But of course if you are the type to try hard drugs like cocaine or heroine, youve probably done marajuana at some point because its so readily available.