lunisicx

Watch this video with an opens mind it is about 9/11 conspiracy theory. This is an awesome online documentary which covers the events surrounding the 9/11 attacks, this is very simple to follow and is a good documentary.

Loose Change - 2nd Edition

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...q=loose+change

NOTE: I don’t want this thread to become a political battle it is just other theory what may happen that day.

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section-8

best one ive seen so far...very in depth....not TOO MUCH bs...but there was some...

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aeroripper

I wouldn't put it beyond the government to sort of "overlook" intelligence as a way to make major change after it happens. Go read the project for a new american century and how the neo-cons talk about a cataclysmic event needing to take place. Also read up on the northwood reports during the kennedy administration (I believe that's what it was called, or something really similar). There are among countless examples in US history where "attacks" were used (or hypothesized about) as a pretext for war or a major sea change. Although it's been proven wrong about there being det charges to help bring the building down, a military plane launching a missle from a pod, and the plane making a strange hole in the pentagon.

This thread is going to turn into chaos I guarantee :P, conspiracy theories always get people fired up on both ends. Although one must remember to keep critical thinking skills and don't succumb to unfounded fearmongering ala www.infowars.com.

Ransack

It brings up some interesting points, but do you take it at face value? Who is the person making the video? Why is he the only one to know all of this? With the rabidness of today's journalists, do you mean to tell me that NONE of them found any of this out or will investigate it?

Also, many talk about how incompetent our government and the president are? But somehow, they have the ability to fool every journalist and man on the street, eyewitness, etc, in 3 separate cities (2 major ones)...while all of this happened in the span of a few hours. Wow, that's giving a lot of credit to the inept federal government.

And if they can do all that, then why in Iraq, for example, couldn't the military have smuggled in fake WMD to prove that Iraq had WMD. If they can fake 911, you surely have to believe they can fake WMD and could have given us absolute proof upon taking over that country.

And finally, if you think of 911 as a govt or military operation, you mean to tell me that you can keep quiet a consipracy that big? Think of all the people involved. Give me a break.....

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icky

That video is a fantastic example of how media can be twisted to say whatever you want it to say.

Even just sitting here at my computer, I could provide solid counterpoints to almost every "fact" presented. Why don't they confront any experts with their "evidence"? That would make for a far more believable video.

I did watch the video with an open mind, but not with a vacant mind.

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AMosely

I'm sorry, but this was not a conspiracy. There are many unsolved pieces of the puzzle created that day, and this video certainly points every single one of them out. I actually read many parts of the 9/11 commission's report and thought it was a very thoughtful, thorough assesment of the events that took place that day. Yes, there are many missing pieces, contradictions and even some cover-ups, but no conspiracy.

While everyone and anyone has a right to study this event in human history, to claim that the people on those planes didn't really die strikes me as disrespectful. Those people most certainly did die under unimaginable circumstances, and deserve respect as history looks on their stories.

Just remember, government miscommunication and apparent ineptitude does not mean a conspiracy - in fact, quite the opposite - the government is incapable of pulling something like this off because of its inability to function as a cohesive unit.

Our government did not discover UFO's in New Mexico, did not fake the moon landings, didn't kill JFK, and most certainly did not attack its own country on 9/11.

aeroripper

Just to make a counter-argument, why is it the government gets off the hook after every terror attack by saying "We made a mistake, we're a bunch of bumbling idiots. Give us even more funding than we got after the last one and we'll make you safe". Then 9\11 comes along with the biggest intelligence failure in US history, and all the government has to do is start patriotically waving the flag and telling us to be patriots and give our confidence to them once again to protect us from terrorism. Also I shouldn't forget to mention the comical 3-minute standing ovation Bush got after visiting the CIA after the attacks. Funny I thought he'd be red in the face with them, but apparantly not.

Now? Much, much more funding, a fundamental re-design of government agency power to share information reducing checks and balances of power.

Hmm... another theory is that they needed a major attack as a pretext to calibrate the agencies into a different role primarily focused on fighting terrorism instead of the cold war. So running with that idea, could that have used it as a scenario of "we have to hurt you a little to help you in the long run?". When thinking about it that way, it doesn't seem as bizzare that the government would let such a thing happen.

Karkianman101

Neither am I taking the video at face value, though if anyone has counterpoints, I'd be really interested in hearing them. But AMosely, can you actually go out and prove those last 2 for me? Cause just saying it doesn't make it true.

AMosely

Unfortunately the concept of conspiracy theory requires that the event(s) in question are impossible to prove in their entirety, therfore requiring a good bit of theorization. In the end, it comes down to what each individual believes is possible. Like I said, I don't believe that the U.S. government is organized enough to pull off plots this complex, nor predict the aftermath closely enough to react to it without contradiction. Looking closely at the behavior of a bureaucratic entity tends to support this notion - that the entity as a whole is nearly impossible to coordinate to any high degree of consistency.

In the case of Kennedy, all I said was that the U.S. government did not kill him. Did members of the U.S. government conceal information about what really happened? Perhaps, but it was not planned nor carried out by the government. I think too many people read too deep into federal attempts at being secretive about the various groups they may have been investigating or otherwise had close ties with at the time. Remember, those were incredibly tense days, and the government believed there were communists among its ranks. It did not trust itself, therefore covered information between agencies quite reguarly.

In the case of 9/11, I think it could not have been more clear what happened that day. The congressional commission did an excellent job: http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm. The report is thorough, and I believe it to be accurate based on the evidence - including witnesses and documentation. I actually know one individual who saw AA 77 fly in at breakneck speed while driving northbound on I-395. Anyone who has ever visited the Pentagon would know why the impact was far from that of a normal building - the Pentagon is not a normal building. In the wake of 9/11, under a paranoid and overprotective executive leader and defense department, the government went to great lengths to stem every bit of information on the impact and the construction of the Pentagon because the building itself is considered a national secret. This is what is being covered up. There are many aspects of the case that brush up against classified areas of the government, and you will find the government classifying that related information at every turn.

For those unfamiliar with the business of information control, this may appear secretive and conspiring. It's only branches the government trying to do what they percieve to be their job - to control the flow of information to the public. Many in government are still obsessed with secrecy and power - things are covered up every day. This does not, however, make the government responsible for a particular event, nor fully capable of covering up every detail.

Karkianman101

So then what happened to the plane? A wall being strong doesn't vaporize a plane that isn't even carrying fuel powerful enough to melt the plane itself, with the glass by the wall still intact, and no sign of the engines.

What about the 3 knots of steel in the basement of the trade centers? How did janitors hear an explosion from beneath them? And how did the flames from the planes go all the way down the elevator shaft? How did the buildings go almost immediately into freefall? If it was a gradual errosion of the structural integrity, its hard enough to believe that the building would fall straight down, and immediately, without some sort of transition between up and down.

I'm not saying that the only answers to these questions involve the government orchestrating it, but they are still unanswered questions.

CingularDuality

What's the alternative to letting it off the hook and trying to improve? Revolution? Anarchy? What do you propose?

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USN_Squid

Most of these links are specifically addressing the Pentagon questions. The last link has links to the other questions but is politically biased so you may want to start at the top.

http://www.alternet.org/story/12536

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/new...agon/frame.htm

http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/cmh/simulation/

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4....Pentagon.html

http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dyn...com/2002/03/14

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm

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aeroripper

In addition with those links above, popular mechanics did a in-depth study of the trade center and pentagon with backup from hundreds of professionals over a plethora of fields saying the planes are what brought the trade center down. They dis-proved most of the conspiracy theories out there with many solid facts, which is usually more than the conspiracy theorist can attest to.

Well lets start by firing the people who screwed up instead of giving them pay raises and promotions? Why can't we take action to make our government more accountable besides an independent report with recommendations, most of which havn't been fufilled as of 2006?

Karkianman101

Most of the things addressed in those links are questions I didn't ask. For instance, none of them mentioned the 3 balls of molten steel, the second explosion that people heard, or the marble breaking off the wall.

The problem with most conspiracy theorists is that they grab everything they can find and just fling it at people, when most of it is ****. So even if about 10% of what they say really is disturbing and undisprovable, discrediting 90% of their argument is good enough for most people to ignore the remaining bits.

The problem with refuters is that they don't even mention that 10%. They discredit that 90%, then say "Look, we're done.". And thats not good enough.

icky

Well it isn't really a problem. Without almost all of the claims being true, the conspiracy is gone, so there is no need to try to explain the little mysteries other than general curiousity.

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