leejo

Hey you can shove a corncob up your butt and worship your dog for all I care, just don't expect to be thought clever for doing it.

Different, yes. Maybe even unique. But not special or smart.

TheFeniX

Then those cultures/religions are wrong and they need to go.It's pretty much America's duty after WWII when we became the first permanent member of the UN.Ask yourself if you were the oppressed party in these countries if you would mind someone strong to drag you out of that stone-age thinking.

Ask the women (actually girls as young as what 11?) raped by Saddam's son's if we're imposing our way of life on them. What about the other women who undergo brutal genital mutilation in these countries and are viewed as nothing but property under these "Holy" religions.

Of course the guy in charge is going to be pissed, but even though I'm just a lowly blue-collar worker here in America: I have unlimited resources to do pretty much whatever I want to. These people deserve the same opportunity.

You group three completely unrelated topics together to sum up the Christianity manifesto which has nothing to do with the arguement.

4-year-olds know killing is wrong. It's a basic party of humanity to know killing your own is a bad thing (as is with many mammals).

Adultery and homo-sexuality are socially learned beliefs. These are not constants. Just as I believe the Bible is a great book of myths, you believe that adultery and homo-sexuality are wrong. You do not in fact know this.

If any human grew up on an island with nothing but gay-people who constantly cheated on each other: they would accept it as the norm and any straight people who stayed with a single partner would be considered weird by their standards.

Before anyone gets on me for trying to de-rail the topic, I put the condemnations of gays to be on the same level as racial slurs. Therefore, I thought it should be pointed out before people start equating the sins of murder and homo-sexuality as equal sins (considering by Old Testament laws, I could be stoned to death for eating shell-fish.....).

EDIT: I thought I should add: I lost all support for Bush after I realized that he's a horrible hypocrit. I let his fundy crap go before, but now that he's trying to take a dump on the Constitution by passing an amendment to ban gay marriages: he can go to Hell.

Bush: "Hey, remember when the founding fathers wrote the Constitution, how they decided it shouldn't dictate laws and become incredibly worthless as say.... the current Texas Constitution? (I know it was written after, but I'm not sure Bush does). Let's scratch that so I can score more points with God. Who cares about the first ammendment anyways? Only those filthy heathen, that's who."

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leejo

Hmm. I was about to agree with you until your edit.

Well let's see. I support homosexuals and their rights. Some straight friends of mine love total dogs in my judgment. Like John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night, it's alright.

I also think that society has the right to preserve the idea of marriage. If legislatures determine that marriage can be between two people of the same sex, then I'll support that decision, though I may personally disagree. However, there is no "right" being trampled upon to merit the courts' decision in this matter: two people, in love or otherwise, can give each other all the powers-of-attorney that a married couple enjoy right now without stomping on the ancient and honored institution of marriage. As far as benefits employers grant, that's their choice isn't it? I suppose a federal employee could make a case that his or her gay lover should receive benefits, but I'm not aware of that case coming up in court.

To me the issue is that IF goverment MUST involve itself in a decision, it should make the right decision. I don't see that government must involve itself in this matter at all, and I don't think (and not a single legislature thinks) that marriage should include homosexuals.

Now. What were we talking about?

USN_Squid

I think the topic was forcing our lifestyle and form of government on others, although I'm not sure that was the original thread topic?!

I agree with others that think that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is the right of every human being. That right is not absolute nor should it be. Society needs rules and normalcy, also known as morals, otherwise you have anarchy. That middle ground where the majority of people feel secure and happy is a moving target.

I agree with asch too. The Muslim frame of reference concerning freedom and government's role in it is 180 degrees out of phase to ours. Democracy is an abomination under God in their view. Man cannot control man, only God can. It sure leaves to door wide open to corrupt religious leaders.

Check out this article. I'm sure not all Muslims believe this, so no offense intended.

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Fait_Maker

I'm wondering why, other than a religious slant, you would think that marriage can only be between a man and a woman? Does it actually hurt you or any promises made to a spouse if someone else does the same thing, but are the same sex? Religion has made it a sanctity between a man and a woman. Being Atheist, I just don't see it as being a big deal. I'm married and if my gay brother <yes, really> wants to marry another man, good for him. Why should gay people even have to fight for this? Maybe it's not a right. However, if it's naturally assumed I can marry any consenting-legal-aged woman, being a guy, doesn't that make it an unwritten right? Taking it to the next step, why can't someone marry anyone who is a consenting-legal-adult? Why can't marriage just be a union between two people who love each other? With as much divorce as we have in this country, why assume opposite-sexed pairs are the only ones who can get it right?

Since I wasn't married in the eyes of god, but by the state, am I really married? Yes, I would think so. So than, why is marriage an institution that has to be protected by the dreaded gays? Why should they have to settle for POA's when I don't? It's just another power play. "We got it and you can't have it, so there."

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leejo

Let me turn it around. Given that all the civil benefits of marriage can be enjoyed by two men who draw up the appropriate contracts, why should society be forced to call that relationship a marriage when it does not wish to call it that?\

Like I said, I think it's a matter for the legislatures to decide if the People decide that it's an issue that legislatures must weigh in on. I absolutely oppose the 9th circuit or some MA judges shoving this idea down the rest of our throats.

Why should 6 year olds not be allowed to vote? Why should old people have to take a vision test to drive? Government makes arbitrary decisions to reflect the general will of the People all the time.

Fait_Maker

While I agree that women being treated as cattle or worse is wrong, what are the women's views of that country? Granted, I don't think they would consent to rape, but quite possibly mutilation.

People do weird things for religion, so I wouldn't be so quick to judge what women would or wouldn't do. I have no idea what the culture is like over there, so I'm just saying this from a generic standpoint.

My oldest brother is a zealot when it comes to the Baptist faith. His wife disagrees with some of the things he does or believes, but because she believes "god" put her to be subservient <sp?> to her husband, she does his bidding. Not quite to the extremes of mutilation, but still.. I hope you know what I'm getting at.

Natives of Africa do some freaky crap to their ears & lips and call it beautiful. I see it as mutilation of their ears.

I guess what I'm saying is, how much of what we consider abuse to women over there is from a tyrant, or society? Or is it something deeper possibly.. a religious thing that the women accept because that's their belief?

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Fait_Maker

All? Can they file taxes jointly? Why should they be labeled anything else but married when they have a committed happy relationship? Just because certain people in power call it an abomination?

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leejo

Well you and I can't file taxes jointly. Since when is that a constitutionally protected right? You can have that one!

I disagree with the people who call homosexuality an abomination, and I challenge you to find a quote of a person in power who's used that language. That's the rhetoric or the left you're using.

Let me be very clear. I have good friends whom I love and respect who are gay. I also love and respect their partners. They are openly homosexual, have good jobs, vote, ride on the front of the bus if they please, and dine out together without consequence. However, doesn't society have the right to encourage or discourage certain behavior so long as it doesn't trample upon basic individual rights?

DudeMan

im sorry brooklyn you are on the most part misinformed about your countries. you are not the only country in the world who has ideals and you are not the only people who have conviction. when you say the rest of the world is seeing bush as dumb, well hello... have you not seen your own people saying the exactl same damn thing.

sorry man but between religion and patriotism you have lost the fact that its the ideology of freedom that is keeping men like bush and Blair in power. Because for the most part people believe all over the world in freedom, i am not sure if you included Britain in your wide brush analysis of europe but if you did you are wrong.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

DudeMan

whoever this was aimed at also could you please invent a machine that brings people back from the dead with only bones as a starting point. then ask them if they would mind bush comming in and getting sadams sons who had just recently fed people to the tigres they kept in a cage.

thats right human bones were reported to have been found in a tigers pen owned by the sadam boys... (cant remember if it was one or both)

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

DudeMan

agreed, i know its something you feel strongly about brooklyn but it is a form of discrimination, you do not have to like their practises but does that mean you have to persecute them as people. they are still human.

ill be honest, gay people make me uneasy but i will never rubbish him or try to hurt him because he is gay.

i am nmot a christian and i couls os easily just sling out some trash at you about the bible, but i wont, why, because i respect that you are a person. i realise that doing so would hurt your feelings, and further more i respect the fact that you have differing opinions to me. i dont have to share them, but seriously you cant say things like that.

oh i know it contradicts what i said a bit but by deffinition that island would die out....lol

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

DudeMan

for the most part while i see what your getting at, i suppose my only objection would be the same rights with reguards to adoption that would make me not want to change. once you start changing you may not be able to stop.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Fait_Maker

Are you and I in a committed consensual relationship? Do you know something I don't? I don't think so. Put your straw man away. Did I say anything about a constitutional right?

If I could find a quote from someone, they wouldn't be in power any longer. Anyone who believes that the Bible is the Holy Word of God believes homosexuality is an abomination. The Bible tells them that and they must believe that to believe in their Christian god. I don't need the left or anything else to tell me that. I was raised Baptist and one of my brothers <#2> is a Baptist preacher. It must be real hard for them to deal with my gay brother <#3> <I'm #5 and the youngest>. Loving him but thinking he's horrid in the eyes of god. It's a conundrum.

1 Corinthians 6
8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


If my wife and I can enjoy the benefit of being able to file jointly, why shouldn't someone else who's made the same commitment? Again, because certain people have decided that homosexuality is an abomination. Marriage is the last safe place they have and they will not have it desecrated.

Isn't it a basic individual right to love who you want? How can anyone claim we are all equal, if we can't all marry the one we love? Heck, my wife was married before she was even 18. She married her first husband when she was 15, with her mother's approval. Even an under-aged girl can do what 2 women or 2 men can't do. How can anyone call that right? Do you honestly believe that the majority of this country gives a rat's ass, if Billybob and Jethro get married?

The idea of the POA or civil contracts is nothing more than an attempt at appeasement and it's cheap at that. It's a spit in the face of every homosexual American. "Oh come on, it's the same benefits as marriage" THEN LET THEM MARRY!

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phyllis

You going to let them adopt then also ?

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