The price of freedom? - Page 4

Fait_Maker · 07-15-2004, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phyllis

You going to let them adopt then also ?

Good parents who will love their child and do the best they can for them? Why not?

Any man and woman can have a baby even if they are unfit. If 2 women or 2 men can pass the same tests a man and a woman do to adopt, I say let them adopt. To do otherwise, in my mind, is a hypocrisy.

**TheFeniX** · 07-15-2004, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I also think that society has the right to preserve the idea of marriage.

What about if they denied marriage between blacks and whites based on the "idea of marriage?" Oh wait.....

This "idea" you speak of is an institution of religious belief, not law. They now want to make a supreme law based on Christian beliefs. I'll pass. The world has done the whole theocrasy bit before.

Quote:

If legislatures determine that marriage can be between two people of the same sex, then I'll support that decision, though I may personally disagree. However, there is no "right" being trampled upon to merit the courts' decision in this matter: two people, in love or otherwise, can give each other all the powers-of-attorney that a married couple enjoy right now without stomping on the ancient and honored institution of marriage. As far as benefits employers grant, that's their choice isn't it? I suppose a federal employee could make a case that his or her gay lover should receive benefits, but I'm not aware of that case coming up in court.

BS, sorry. Gays can derive none of the benefit of marriage (good or bad).

1. They can't file for tax discounts.
2. They can't make decisions that affect the life of the partner. Ex: one is in a coma. In that instance, a wife's wishes would take precedence over any other immediate family. In this instance, the partner is screwed.
3. Power of attorney != union. It simply means you both have control over finances and other mundane choices.

Even if you want to make them another form of union separate from marriage: we've tried "separate but equal" before. It doesn't work.

Honestly, I wouldn't even want to be associated with some of the bigots out there about marriage, but some do and they want the same rights that every other couple has.

There is no good reason for denying same sex marriage. You can't claim that you're protecting the "idea" because the same thing was said (and still is in some hick areas) about inter-racial marriage. People and society evolve. The "idea" of marriage will evolve as well.

The only real reasons I see to ban marriage is based on a few quotes from a book that was out-dated by the 20th century but is still used to make any arguement worth grasping onto.

Quote:

To me the issue is that IF goverment MUST involve itself in a decision, it should make the right decision.

So.... define "right."

Quote:

I don't see that government must involve itself in this matter at all, and I don't think (and not a single legislature thinks) that marriage should include homosexuals.

Although even I hate to think California actually has a government: maybe you should take a look at some laws they passed there a while back. Then you can re-think this statement.

Quote:

Now. What were we talking about?

That Bush should be ashamed to call himself a Texan?

Did you know that over 80% of American's think it should be illegal to burn an American flag in protest? It's been passed through Congress a few times as well. the Supreme Court did it's job and smacked it down because it's a violation of Freedom of Expression. All these people want if the right to be an equal terms with "normal" people. They will continue to fight because they want to express their love on the same terms as everyone else.

It's not up to the average citizen to decide if an action that doesn't affect them is "right" or not. Democracy is a double-edge sword. You have the right to express yourself as you sit fit, but you are forced to see things that you may not agree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

for the most part while i see what your getting at, i suppose my only objection would be the same rights with reguards to adoption that would make me not want to change. once you start changing you may not be able to stop.

Why? What would make having gay parents that bad? It's not illegal now. Gay women have kids all the time. Guys have a much harder time just because they can't carry the child themselves. They have to adopt it, and that causes a lot of red-tape.

"Equality" is not a nickle-and-dime operation. You give all or none. Why should anyone's sexual preference affect any descision of their compentance at raising kids? If anything, two gay men raising a child would be great parents, because there would be so many people waiting for them to screw up. They would be forced to be models of parenthood.

BTW: Maybe this should be split. I think everyone has said their piece on Iraq, and this has grown into something else.

**DudeMan** · 07-15-2004, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

Good parents who will love their child and do the best they can for them? Why not?

Any man and woman can have a baby even if they are unfit. If 2 women or 2 men can pass the same tests a man and a woman do to adopt, I say let them adopt. To do otherwise, in my mind, is a hypocrisy.

here is where we part ways, yes i dop have objection to this, homosexuality is against nature, if we were all gay there would be no us.

and thats the law of nature not god nature. i believe homosexuality has been arond for centuries since time began as part of the same greed and lusts that makes people steal or do nasty things for gratification.

sorry but thats my opinion

**leejo** · 07-15-2004, 12:25 AM

Alexander the Great was gay and he kicked a lot of ass. As I've said, I don't have any problem with homosexuality, and if the People want to condone homosexual marriage then I'll support it, but I don't accept the 9th circuit or MA judges deciding what's right for the entire country. All I'm saying is that no constitutionally protected right is violated (show me where Thomas Jefferson was supporting gay marriage), therefore the court should not decide this matter over the objections of the People.

Fait_Maker · 07-15-2004, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

here is where we part ways, yes i dop have objection to this, homosexuality is against nature, if we were all gay there would be no us.

and thats the law of nature not god nature. i believe homosexuality has been arond for centuries since time began as part of the same greed and lusts that makes people steal or do nasty things for gratification.

sorry but thats my opinion

Your nature, maybe, but not the rest of the worlds.
The Natural "Crime Against Nature"

Not to mention there are many people on this planet that are gay and do pro-create. Gay does not preclude Bisexual.

**DudeMan** · 07-15-2004, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

Your nature, maybe, but not the rest of the worlds.
The Natural "Crime Against Nature"

Not to mention there are many people on this planet that are gay and do pro-create. Gay does not preclude Bisexual.

i already said its a form of lust and greed,

and if you want to use animals as an example the next horse to adopt another horse with its horse gay partner ill accept your notion.

its lust, it may amount to love but it is not acceptable to give a child to a gay couple in our society.

Brooklyn · 07-15-2004, 12:44 AM

Fait Maker if your best answer for HoMO marriage is comparing it to a failed heterosexual marriage is the best you can do ???? Wake up stop saying silly things !

Thank God for his direction in life and not lost men ! with WILD ideas.

**leejo** · 07-15-2004, 12:52 AM

Wow. I'm with fait in being sorry to see such venom directed at the notion of homosexual couples and their rights to raise children, etc, even though I disagree with the notion of supporting gay marriage based on judicial fiat.

Fait_Maker · 07-15-2004, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

i already said its a form of lust and greed,

and if you want to use animals as an example the next horse to adopt another horse with its horse gay partner ill accept your notion.

its lust, it may amount to love but it is not acceptable to give a child to a gay couple in our society.

My link, totally.. TOTALLY.., dismisses your rather silly notion that homosexuality is unnatural. You just can't admit it. It may be something unnatural to you, but so is worshipping god to me.

You may think it's lust because you don't feel that way. Just because you can't understand it, doesn't mean its real.

To give a child to someone that wouldn't love him/her is what is unacceptable. That's something that happens all the time. Hospitals do it all the time.

To me, that comment is about the most bigoted thing I've heard anyone say in this forum. Just because they give you the willies, doesn't mean they are beneath you and deserve anything less than you, yourself, have. I feel like we are in the 1960's talking about a black person. "Give up my seat for one? That's not acceptable".

Now before you flame on, think about what you just said to me. Could I possibly react to your comment any other way?

Fait_Maker · 07-15-2004, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

Fait Maker if your best answer for HoMO marriage is comparing it to a failed heterosexual marriage is the best you can do ???? Wake up stop saying silly things !

Thank God for his direction in life and not lost men ! with WILD ideas.

Odd, that wasn't my best answer. That was just a passing comment. Re-read the entire thread again please. And don't forget to read the quote in my signature before you come at me with theocracy. I don't believe in your god, won't bow to your idea of it, or to you.

**leejo** · 07-15-2004, 12:57 AM

As my best gay friend's father once said to a silly church lady, "ever had oral sex with your husband? What's natural about that?"

Sorry to be graphic, but what a man and his wife do together isn't always 'natural' either. From Woody Allen's "Take the money and run":

Do you think sex is dirty?
Only if you're doing it right.

Uh, the price of freedom. Right.

**DudeMan** · 07-15-2004, 01:03 AM

no absolutly not and until now there have been no personal insults. however in one post you have called me a bigot silly and stupid because i cant understand it. so first off an apology for that would not go un -missed.

second of all, i have not once said that Gay people are sick that gay people should stop practising, infact the oposite. i dont care what people get up to under the blanket. i think it is un-natural i say that because it is the oposite of evolution which is what i believe in.

i do not believe in god dont even try to throw that argument at me

and if you read what i said, "IN OUR SOCIETY" then maybe you can grasp my thinking. like it or not, Gay people are not totally accepted in our society, the child growing up with a gay family is my paramount concern.

so on this issue i would like you to look at your reply and then reconsider the flurry of insults you threw at me as they were not needed fait. really do you want to get into this kind of discussion again?

and while we are on the issue of adoption and you bring up the Black man, did you know that a white family cant adopt a black child in my country. hmmm now when i say that in our society it is unfair bare that in mind,

My mother and father are foster carers, and because they are both white they cant take black chilldren for fear of cultural abuse and the child being an out cast. so if even this obsticle is not over come then how do you expect me to condone the gay situation.

really fait i am surprised, you started the insults and if you read my post again you will see i was not acting through bigotry at all.

**DudeMan** · 07-15-2004, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

As my best gay friend's father once said to a silly church lady, "ever had oral sex with your husband? What's natural about that?"

Sorry to be graphic, but what a man and his wife do together isn't always 'natural' either. From Woody Allen's "Take the money and run":

Do you think sex is dirty?
Only if you're doing it right.

Uh, the price of freedom. Right.

i have not once tried to say gay people are wrong and should stop yes i think their beliefe and feelings are against evolution and my whole ideal behind human grwoth. but i am not attacking gay people in general, which is why the comment about the abnimals wasnt needed fait. because i am attacking the bringing up of another chold with only Gay people. i think this is the issue and i dont agree with that.

i said from the start that i dont have a problem with gay relationships,

Fait_Maker · 07-15-2004, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

no absolutly not and until now there have been no personal insults. however in one post you have called me a bigot silly and stupid because i cant understand it. so first off an apology for that would not go un -missed.

And yet again, you miss the comment. To say you have made a bigoted comment is not to insult you, call you a name or anything else. I never said you were a bigot. I said the comment was the most bigoted thing I've heard. I attacked the statement, not the man. We've been over this before, as you say. If you say something I feel is racist, bigoted, or whatever, I will tell you that I think that statement is racist, bigoted, or whatever. AND in MY society, that would be a bigoted comment.

Quote:

second of all, i have not once said that Gay people are sick that gay people should stop practising, infact the oposite. i dont care what people get up to under the blanket. i think it is un-natural i say that because it is the oposite of evolution which is what i believe in.

And yet it still happens in nature, no matter what you say different. It happens amongst animals. How could that not be more natural? By what standard do you consider natural? If you mean purely by what our society thinks is natural, than you MIGHT be correct. However, sodomy happens in my society with hetero or homo alike. That's not natural to the rule of pro-creation, but guess what?? I can't pro-create anymore and I still have sex. Should I quit because it no longer has anything to do with evolution?

Quote:

i do not believe in god dont even try to throw that argument at me.

I didn't throw any arguement about god toward your beliefs. The comment was directed at myself. I don't worship god and I feel it's unnatural BUT I don't go around saying let's abolish it or do away with it. I think you need to stop before you post and actually read what someone says. No where did I say anything about you worshipping god.

Quote:

and if you read what i said, "IN OUR SOCIETY" then maybe you can grasp my thinking. like it or not, Gay people are not totally accepted in our society, the child growing up with a gay family is my paramount concern.

And that's what I hope to change.

Quote:

so on this issue i would like you to look at your reply and then reconsider the flurry of insults you threw at me as they were not needed fait. really do you want to get into this kind of discussion again?

Apparently so, since you aren't grasping what it is to disagree or condemn something someone says. I can condemn what you say without condemning you.

Quote:

and while we are on the issue of adoption and you bring up the Black man, did you know that a white family cant adopt a black child in my country. hmmm now when i say that in our society it is unfair bare that in mind,

My mother and father are foster carers, and because they are both white they cant take black chilldren for fear of cultural abuse and the child being an out cast. so if even this obsticle is not over come then how do you expect me to condone the gay situation.

That's not how it is in my society and since we are talking about an amendment being added to the US Constitution, which really has nothing to do with Britain, I don't know why you would assume we are talking about the British society. I could care less about the British society. I do not live there. I really don't expect you to condone a gay situation. I never once asked you for your approval in the matter, Dude.

Quote:

really fait i am surprised, you started the insults and if you read my post again you will see i was not acting through bigotry at all.

I don't think you are acting through bigotry. I think you made a bigoted comment and I won't reverse myself on that, as I've already explained.

**DudeMan** · 07-15-2004, 01:29 AM

no fait dress it up as much as you like when you look at the comment again with the words in our society it is not bogoted at all, yet nothing comes from you to say any other way.

you choose to overlook key issues of someones argument to make them look the bad guy i wont have it.

again i will say, and maybe you will get it. I me my god damn opinion. that homsexuality os against nature and human growth under my beliefs in evolution of the species.

i dont care if you have oral anal or whatever other kind of sex, sex is sex and i am not attacking gay people having ssex.

when it comes to a child, our society is not ready for a gay couple to bring up childrens without serious problems. therefore when it comes to the authorities giving chilldren to couples in our society i dont agree. you can say you want to change all you like but the fact of the matter is i am talking here and now. not 20 years in the future.

You just can't admit it

directed at me, then you follow with how i cant understand it, please fait i am privy to the art of patronising someone. if you say you were not well sure fact is you are adressing my argument as if i am against gay people. even though the evidence suggests i am not.

and you know what you really think this isnt patronising,

"I do not live there. I really don't expect you to condone a gay situation. I never once asked you for your approval in the matter, Dude."

im not stupid mate dont treat me as such. the fact is you mistook the first comment you read and you are making up for it now.

07-15-2004, 12:25 AM	#49 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: The price of freedom? Alexander the Great was gay and he kicked a lot of ass. As I've said, I don't have any problem with homosexuality, and if the People want to condone homosexual marriage then I'll support it, but I don't accept the 9th circuit or MA judges deciding what's right for the entire country. All I'm saying is that no constitutionally protected right is violated (show me where Thomas Jefferson was supporting gay marriage), therefore the court should not decide this matter over the objections of the People.

07-15-2004, 12:44 AM	#52 (permalink)
Brooklyn Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 157	Re: The price of freedom? Fait Maker if your best answer for HoMO marriage is comparing it to a failed heterosexual marriage is the best you can do ???? Wake up stop saying silly things ! Thank God for his direction in life and not lost men ! with WILD ideas.

07-15-2004, 12:52 AM	#53 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: The price of freedom? Wow. I'm with fait in being sorry to see such venom directed at the notion of homosexual couples and their rights to raise children, etc, even though I disagree with the notion of supporting gay marriage based on judicial fiat.

07-15-2004, 12:57 AM	#56 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: The price of freedom? As my best gay friend's father once said to a silly church lady, "ever had oral sex with your husband? What's natural about that?" Sorry to be graphic, but what a man and his wife do together isn't always 'natural' either. From Woody Allen's "Take the money and run": Do you think sex is dirty? Only if you're doing it right. Uh, the price of freedom. Right.

07-15-2004, 01:03 AM	#57 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: The price of freedom? no absolutly not and until now there have been no personal insults. however in one post you have called me a bigot silly and stupid because i cant understand it. so first off an apology for that would not go un -missed. second of all, i have not once said that Gay people are sick that gay people should stop practising, infact the oposite. i dont care what people get up to under the blanket. i think it is un-natural i say that because it is the oposite of evolution which is what i believe in. i do not believe in god dont even try to throw that argument at me and if you read what i said, "IN OUR SOCIETY" then maybe you can grasp my thinking. like it or not, Gay people are not totally accepted in our society, the child growing up with a gay family is my paramount concern. so on this issue i would like you to look at your reply and then reconsider the flurry of insults you threw at me as they were not needed fait. really do you want to get into this kind of discussion again? and while we are on the issue of adoption and you bring up the Black man, did you know that a white family cant adopt a black child in my country. hmmm now when i say that in our society it is unfair bare that in mind, My mother and father are foster carers, and because they are both white they cant take black chilldren for fear of cultural abuse and the child being an out cast. so if even this obsticle is not over come then how do you expect me to condone the gay situation. really fait i am surprised, you started the insults and if you read my post again you will see i was not acting through bigotry at all. __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

07-15-2004, 01:29 AM	#60 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: The price of freedom? no fait dress it up as much as you like when you look at the comment again with the words in our society it is not bogoted at all, yet nothing comes from you to say any other way. you choose to overlook key issues of someones argument to make them look the bad guy i wont have it. again i will say, and maybe you will get it. I me my god damn opinion. that homsexuality os against nature and human growth under my beliefs in evolution of the species. i dont care if you have oral anal or whatever other kind of sex, sex is sex and i am not attacking gay people having ssex. when it comes to a child, our society is not ready for a gay couple to bring up childrens without serious problems. therefore when it comes to the authorities giving chilldren to couples in our society i dont agree. you can say you want to change all you like but the fact of the matter is i am talking here and now. not 20 years in the future. You just can't admit it directed at me, then you follow with how i cant understand it, please fait i am privy to the art of patronising someone. if you say you were not well sure fact is you are adressing my argument as if i am against gay people. even though the evidence suggests i am not. and you know what you really think this isnt patronising, "I do not live there. I really don't expect you to condone a gay situation. I never once asked you for your approval in the matter, Dude." im not stupid mate dont treat me as such. the fact is you mistook the first comment you read and you are making up for it now. __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

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