leejo

I don't accept this statement as anything other than personal opinion without some supporting evidence. One could argue that society is not ready for an interracial couple to bring up a child without serious problems too. While that may be accurate, it doesn't mean that society should force interracial couples to give up their children.

What if a woman has a child and then realizes she's gay and becomes part of a homosexual couple? Or a man does the same? There is no law in either of our countries that states that society can yank a child away from a parent simply because their sexual partner is one sex or the other, and if there's evidence that such people are unfit parents I'm not aware of it.

leejo

poor Newswrthy. Who new?

DudeMan

call it what you will but my last girlfriend had a Gay mother, and between preasure from her mother to look at girls and to think about hewr sexuality and being a complete outcast once this very sensative secret came out, she began to harm herself, thats my problem, society.

stop thinking about the parents and think about the child, in our society, i dont accept we are ready to do this. like the comment or not.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Fait_Maker

From where I stand, I could make the same comment that you are trying to dress up what you said to be something different. Your comment that "it is not acceptable to give a child to a gay couple in our society." appears to be something you believe. I believe that is a bigoted comment. You came back and pretty much said, until my parents can adopt a black child, I don't think it is acceptable for a gay to have a child. That changes the tone entirely, doesn't it? I still stand by my original comment. Words have meaning. Be careful of your words.

I overlooked nothing. You didn't clarify until I made the "bigoted" comment.

So that's your opinion. Why can't I say you are wrong? That's my opinion and my link makes it fact. It's not against nature. Heck, I dont' know that it's against human growth. Besides, evolution is not the end all. I personally am not here to advance evolution. I am here to live my life.

No, you said homosexuality is unnatural. If you truley meant to say that our society calls it unnatural, than fine. I will agree with that. If you think homosexuality is unnatural period, I will argue that, with facts that prove you wrong. I cannot read your mind and I stand by my prior comment based on what you first said, which I quoted above.

Well, my country would appear to be more advanced than yours, because in my country, race is not a determining factor for an adoption. Whites can adopt black, yellow, red... Black people can adopt white children. Asian can adopt black. We've got it going on over here. Since we've passed that hurdle, let me work on the gay thing. Since you haven't in your country, you keep working on the race thing.

Could you quote me? Could you show me where I said you were against gay people? I never said you were against anything. However, YOU said you were against gay people adopting children. Sure, you explained why afterward. You actually have a compelling arguement, for your society.


You tell me, Dude. This is something I see you post time and time again, usually to me. "I can't be bothered". "I didn't ask for your approval". "I really don't care what you think". If it's patronizing, than fine. You would be just as guilty of it, my friend. Isn't that the very meaning of hypocrisy? You can, but I can't?

The truth of the matter is, we are talking about a US situation at present and you want to chime in with out it is over in Britain, like it has relevance on the current topic of gay marriage in the US. So I don't think it's patronizing for me to point out that I don't live there, so the current state of your local laws have no interest to me.

No, that would not be fact and again I've explained it. I don't think you are stupid. I think you look at things a different way. Could it be your age compared to mine? Different countries? Different lifestyles? Experiences? Yes.

Just because you look at it one way though, doesn't necessarily mean I look at it the same way. In my country, your bare-bones comment, without the follow-up explanation, would appear to be bigoted. And as I've already said, I would be willing to agree that it wasn't in the manner you meant, but without your second post, I couldn't know that. Therefore, my original comment has to stand that it was bigoted based on the original quote that I was replying to at the time. Make sense yet?

You know I love ya, Dude <brotherly love :P>. Chill out man.

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Fait_Maker

So you have personal experience with someone having gay parents. Fine. I feel for your friend. Society does suck that way, sometimes. Hiding the issue by not allowing it won't get society over the issue any time soon though.

Also, your friend is one of how many people? Can you tell me how many stories you know of where the children have gay parents and grow up to live wonderful ordinary, usually heterosexual lives? Can you tell me how many stories you know of where the children of gay parents were hurt emotionally or physically by the fact their parents were gay? If you can't, you really don't have a basis to say that the lifestyle or even society hurts the child. You can't use the words "in most cases" or even many cases". Not even "in some cases". You just don't have the numbers to make that kind of statement. <An assumption, but I figure if you had the numbers, you'd have posted them by now.>

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DudeMan

im not getting heated,

i just dont apreciate being patronised.

i dont even think you know your doing it.

ok why would my natural reaction be to clarify something i have said, when in my mind it is completely coherent and explains its self. i dont know maybe it is 6 years of literary study, and interpreting language forming meansing that has made me use a contextual statement rather than a whole full on essay examining why.

IN our society, if you would like to leave the Race issue asside considering it doesnt affect your country. (which i seriously doubt is as cut and dry as you say)

in both our societies, growing up as a chold is hard enough in a regular family unit. i will say it again as you seem to still say i attacked gay people. sex is sex, it is semi accepted in society as it is, by adults. but by chilldren and people who will sorround a child in this situation the world is a much more evil place.

i have said in my last post about a girl i used to go out with, and believe me, i empathise with her mostly when i empathise with any child that will go into this siutation. if she isnt self mutliation she is off her face of coke or heroin.

she hates her mother, because her mother confuses her, and she is very anti social because society (most of the people her smae age) treat her as an out cast.

yes i can see its petty, i (as i have said if you read back to my first post) do not pick on people because they are Gay but society at large is not like that. so why am i going to agree that sending a child into a situation like that. i cant.


sorry just as you still refuse to acknowlege my comment is not bigoted i will not accept you are not or were not trying to patronise me.

the context fait the context.

if you can turn around and say that in america gay people are totally accepted and this chilld adoption thing would go off without a hitch then i will agree my comment even in the states is bigoted. but considering people like brroklyn (who i dont agree with) and the whole legislation thing at the moment suggests this isnt the case. therefore when i said in our society, it wasnt biggoted. it is aparant you cant see the reasoning. well again thats not my fault,

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

NewsWrthy

well, when I started this Thread, I intended a discussion of the implications of a Free nation in the middle east and what it is worth in human sacrifice to free any peoples from an opressive dictatorial regime. Not the polotics but the real world cost. It seems that it has drifted far and wide. This is not a bad thing. Fact is Your rights end where mine begin. Soliers who leave home to fight for the freedom of others give up those rights to insure other have them.Those are the True "Heros".
As for the issue of gay rights, I dissagree with the life style. Yet my whole philosophy of life revolves around FREEDOM. There for I con not in all concience forbid any one from exercising and freedom wheither I agree or not. Some may think this is not an apropriat analogy, but......lol. I hate green pepers I will not eat them on a pizza or cooked in a sauce or any other way, they are disgusting....... TO ME. Yet I have NO right to keep them from you weither you have children who might end up liking them or not.

DudeMan

oh so now its a case of statistics, so ;et me see what you are saying is that my ex's situation is unique, it is not a possibility.


do you know what, ok ill go into figures, out of 12 gay people i know one is happy to tell people he is gay, and when we were at school he was badly beaten up and stabbed, now although noone knew exactly why he was beaten up it could be one of many things, he was also asian, but i was witness to the writting fag all over his bag, pushing him in corridoors.

other gay people i know wont tell anyone, my freind from college of two years told me when we were leaving college in june he was Gay, i told him i knew, he said he was worried about telling me because he thought i would hate him.

sorry fait but if you want to bring age into it, i am here i am now i am in this generation and i can tewll you from experience, if somoen is even found out gay, then they really loose friends and get ousted quick. not by all ill agree. but its these people who do these things, they are the idiots that surround us in society and they are the people these kids will grow up with.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

DudeMan

i just want to add i have many happy stories about gay people i know also, none are relevent because i focused on those ousted in my own experience by those who surround us all. people like brooklyn who i know is not stupid, but hisrelentless acceptance of the christian gods will means he hates the prospect of gay sex.

if it were not a current problem in both our societies fait, this discussion would not occur.

i am not a minority, some will not want to put their opinons in thats up to them with all this talk of bigotry you can see how some will get the wrng idea,

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Benny_

It's a shame the history doesn't go back to the gay marriage thread..(admin?)..
I think Newswrthy hit it, saying it is wrong to preach freedom on one hand and then condone free choice on the other.

I didn't read Fait's post as patronising or an insult, for the record, just a straight post about the statement.

Homosexuality is natural, and wil always occur, and all the time it is not accepted increases the taboo nature of it.

I feel for your friend DM, but it sounds like bad parenting irrespective of sexual orientation. I know plenty of people who have hit the smack & coke route...those pesky hetro parents..

jex

Mmm well I only have to read the first page to see the personal attacks on me - thanks guys. Next time everyone groups together to attack you, I'll be sure to contribute to you dictatorial views.

Again I've been misquoted and again you've all fully and completely missed the point because you lack the vision to see it. Thanks to those that stepped up to support my views, whether you agree with them or not. To the rest you're like a lynching mob that disregards freedom of speech and attacks those who's views don't match your own whilst believing that you know best because obviously you are in charge of all the facts.

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Jex

leejo

Oh goodness Jez. First you compare worry about job security to suffering tyrrany and oppression, and now you compare getting smacked around in an internet forum to being the victim of a lynch mob. Yes yes and a tricycle is like a porsche. A sneeze is like having your head cut off.

Nobody's threatened your free speech - here you are posting away about the same points. If I ever lay some egg that prompts a group to jump on my ideas, I'll defend myself, modify my position, slink away quietly, or maybe learn something, so pile on!

I for one wasn't attacking you personally, I was personally attacking your ideas, but I wouldn't use attack. I thought you said some boneheaded things and replied. I know you're not stupid and I think you're a nice guy.

jex

Thanks leejo I think your Ok too but if you go back and read the torrent of angered responses there you'll see why I responded so. I have never attacked anyone for there responses on these boards unless I've been attacked first.

I simply say that if people cannot take others views then don't read forums. If you get angry (which seems to be the case on some replies) then that's their fault. If people get like that about others views that show's those people have no belief in freedom of speech unless that speech agrees with them. Well I'm not putting up for other peoples insecurities. Attacks only come when you infringe on peoples insecurities - ask any pyschologist.

Going back to my point about freedom I was meaning that we are not free. If we were we could do as we please but you cannot go down a road these days without being told what to do can you? I'm talking road signs here. Everyday we have to to things - that is not freedom and I think that people should accept that fact.

Obviously the fear generated by torture is different than the fear by your own security on keeping up payments, jobs etc but it's still there for a lot of people. Just because people here aren't affectecd by it (or are living in denial ) doesn't mean that everyone is the same. I think a lot of people judge others by the way they feel.

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Jex

NewsWrthy

[quote=jex]

Going back to my point about freedom I was meaning that we are not free. If we were we could do as we please but you cannot go down a road these days without being told what to do can you? I'm talking road signs here. Everyday we have to to things - that is not freedom and I think that people should accept that fact.

I Must disagree. regulations like the ones you sight are not there to usurp you freedom but protect those of all. I can't drive in one direction while every body else drive in anouther in the same lane. If I did I would greatly in fringe on your life and liberty. Freedom doesn't meen you can do as you please with out care. that is anarcy. We have rules to protect the rights of all. I am subject to federaly mandated drug screenings, I do not view this as an infringe ment on my rights, but a protection of yours. Who wants some one whacked out on drugs driving an 80'000 (40ton) Tractor trailer at 70 miles an hr down the highway. Yet the same regulation that I agree with in my industry I rail against in other casses. My mother is an acounts payable clerk for a county gov and is subject to the same tests this I dissagree with. It is not in the intrest of public safty.

TheFeniX

So? That's High School. People get beat up for being skinny/fat/smart/stupid anything. Key term is: different. High School kids are to immature to even factor into this discussion.

When an entire sect of society (Grade School) is based around prison ethics and morals: it makes for a bad comparison to "real" life.

If only black people had the ability to hide their skin color: they would have been much happier because society would have accepted them.

I mean, who needs actual rights and freedom when you can just hide who you truely are and live a lie all your life? As long as they don't "give us (or our kids) the gay, right?."

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