Will Americans Join Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians as Neocon Victims?

TheFatKidDeath · 07-20-2006, 03:07 PM

Another insightful article from Paul Craig Roberts who was an official in the Regan Administration.

"Neocon warmongers have stolen the conservative name, the Republican Party, and a portion of the evangelical movement"

Sad, but true.

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/060719_war.htm

Rick_the_new_guy · 07-20-2006, 04:05 PM

Intriging....

the "doulble standard" of how what the "Free World" does is cool but what the bad guys do are terrist activties. Another example of Orwells "doublespeak" word he coigned in his Book 1984.

Yes we are too brain washed and distracted by business and pleasure that the machine has created to focus on this issue.

During the Cold War the word was "Free World" vs. Communism. Meaning, China, U.S.S.R. Vietnam, Cuba, and Cambodia or Loas (can't remember) were baddies and everyone else were good. Meanwhile Many countries in the "Free World" were super mean to their people and others. They had slaves, treated their citizens like crap, and were unstable, and U.S. did not say much about that at all. Granted i am sort of an isolationist, so i would talk quitly and carry a big stick and stay on my side of the fence. Look after my community first and everybody else second.

Now a days it looks like it is the Civilized world vs. Terrists phrase.
Very simple stuff here and easily digested by the cattle.

I have not been studying this issue of Isral much.

I agree that the Noconservatives have taken control of the GOP. This has lead to their unpopularity a round the world and in the States. Second week of November 2006 is fast approaching.
I mean what was the deal with the Terry Shivow case study. No way the GOP of the 1980s would get invovled with a personal matter that involves the wishes of a husband that legally can make the discussion to end his wifes live. The repubs were bowing to their evangelical masters like no other. Plus it was an election year i think.
And what was the deal with the 100 dollar check for gasoline high prices. What a joke. Glad that got rejected.

These gusy just suck hard. Give me the GOP of the 1980s when they were for fiscical responsbility, retarded the Fed Government (not the military JK) and letting people live their gd life they want too.

Not that it really matters. Both sides are total crap and put on a big show. Like i said before, politicans at that level is like wathing professional wrestling. Looks nasty, but at the end of the day they go party together. Yes!!! wrestling is fake.

AMosely · 07-20-2006, 04:31 PM

I can't believe I'm about to defend Bush and neoconservatives, but here goes...

This writing is really overblowing things, and there are far too many generalizations and false statements to make it a debatable opinon. I've followed the Arab/Israeli conflict quite closely for 20 years and travelled through the region twice (including the West Bank and Lebanese border). I've also tracked the history of the neoconservative movement in America. This editorial falsely represents both.

The question posed by Paul Craig Roberts is : "What explains the indifference of the Bush administration to the slaughter of civilians in Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza?"

Thought I wouldn't exactly call it indifference (in fact in many ways it is the opposite, the American government cares quite deeply about the ongoing conflict), the imbalanced, pro-Israel view taken on by the current US administration is born out of criteria within the larger 'war on terror.' From the Bush administration's perspective, any country that houses, aids, or in any way facilitates terrorism is considered accountable for the actions of those terrorists, and any punishment that is dealt as a result. In some ways I think it unfair to categorize diplomatic status in such stark terms, but in another sense, controlling governments need to be held accountable for things that happen in their countries. If they turn a blind eye and claim indifference, as has happened in Lebanon and Gaza, there is at least some justification in their losses (both civilian and infrastructure).

'Slaughter' is also a poor choice of words when it comes to the combat we have witnessed thus far, and if used to describe what is happening to Lebanese civilians, can similarly be used to describe what is happening to Israeli civilians. Every battle in this region for the past 60 years (and more) has involved civilian casualties on both sides. Such is war fought in a dense theater. It is tragic, but all parties are losing, and all parties are to blame.

Lastly, the statement "Neoconservatives believe that the US and Israel can extirpate Islam with fire and sword and that the present opportunity to escalate the current conflict into generalized war in the Middle East must not be missed" is completely false (and I assume 'extirpate' is meant to be 'exterminate.') Neoconservatives believe that all world countries should essentially be constructed in America's democratic image, or at least run by governments that accept America's leadership and principles. This is an arrogant and selfish view, but this is far from a call to exterminate Islam, or any other race or culture that refuses to accept the American brand of democracy. If you care to become more educated about neocons, I suggest starting at their homepage - http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html.

(edit to add PNAC link)

Kerostasis · 07-20-2006, 10:48 PM

Wow. When you're too far left even for Mosely, you know you've gone off the deep end.

Not to criticize you or anything, Mosely. Its just that we disagree on an awful lot, so its a pleasent surprise to actually share an opinion with you for once.

Switchcraft · 07-21-2006, 01:22 AM

Um, isn't ever hezbollah member going to be described as a civilian when they die?
Isn't it funny that the author can call Israelis "cowardly" for doing something to stop the slaughter of their people, but has no such words for hezbollah, or hamas? Hamas launch nearly 1,000 rockets into Israel over the last year at civilian populations...I bet he never wrote such a one-sided article about that as long as Israel behaved itself and didn't hit back.

In fat, in his article he doesn't mention at all that there are two sides to this conflict. He quotes Bolton as saying so, but then scoffs at thim. Reading this, te author would have you believe the Israelis just woke up one day and decided to go around bombing civilians.

And the stuff about the Arab world hating Israel more for this is obvious crap. The major governments out there are actually blaming hezbollah and hamas for doing this. A Wahhabi in Saudi Arabia has issued a a fatwa making it "unlawful to support, join or pray for Hezbollah."

So the Arab world isn't hating Israel more for this "cowardly" defense of their people.

Yet another one-sided article from a shrill idealogue with no moral backbone.

Rick_the_new_guy · 07-21-2006, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

Um, isn't ever hezbollah member going to be described as a civilian when they die?
Isn't it funny that the author can call Israelis "cowardly" for doing something to stop the slaughter of their people, but has no such words for hezbollah, or hamas? Hamas launch nearly 1,000 rockets into Israel over the last year at civilian populations...I bet he never wrote such a one-sided article about that as long as Israel behaved itself and didn't hit back.

In fat, in his article he doesn't mention at all that there are two sides to this conflict. He quotes Bolton as saying so, but then scoffs at thim. Reading this, te author would have you believe the Israelis just woke up one day and decided to go around bombing civilians.

And the stuff about the Arab world hating Israel more for this is obvious crap. The major governments out there are actually blaming hezbollah and hamas for doing this. A Wahhabi in Saudi Arabia has issued a a fatwa making it "unlawful to support, join or pray for Hezbollah."

So the Arab world isn't hating Israel more for this "cowardly" defense of their people.

Yet another one-sided article from a shrill idealogue with no moral backbone.

Good points. i was on vacation last week and work evenings so today i checked up on the devolopments on my day off. Confusing stuff.

Yeah the writer was really biased.

Many politicans are saying the Israel's are defending themselves by wiping out the terrist in the area. Good luck with that, u can't get them all. This will be bad for Hezbollah short term but in the future they will recurit new members who remember the "slaughter" as they would put it.
Bottum line this whole area is going to mushroom into somthing big one of these years. Tough level here. Tough.

**DudeMan** · 07-21-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFatKidDeath

Another insightful article from Paul Craig Roberts who was an official in the Regan Administration.

"Neocon warmongers have stolen the conservative name, the Republican Party, and a portion of the evangelical movement"

Sad, but true.

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/060719_war.htm

you needto watch Adam Curtis' "the Power of Nightmares." threepart documentory illustration the struggle between the Neo conservatives and the Radical Islamists. i will warn you it is avery polamic style of arguing... and it is done for effect.. but its still a good watch/

07-20-2006, 03:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
TheFatKidDeath Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Santa Monica, CA Age: 39 Posts: 2,799	Will Americans Join Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians as Neocon Victims? Another insightful article from Paul Craig Roberts who was an official in the Regan Administration. "Neocon warmongers have stolen the conservative name, the Republican Party, and a portion of the evangelical movement" Sad, but true. http://www.vdare.com/roberts/060719_war.htm

07-20-2006, 04:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rick_the_new_guy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 29 Posts: 1,789	Re: Will Americans Join Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians as Neocon Victims? Intriging.... the "doulble standard" of how what the "Free World" does is cool but what the bad guys do are terrist activties. Another example of Orwells "doublespeak" word he coigned in his Book 1984. Yes we are too brain washed and distracted by business and pleasure that the machine has created to focus on this issue. During the Cold War the word was "Free World" vs. Communism. Meaning, China, U.S.S.R. Vietnam, Cuba, and Cambodia or Loas (can't remember) were baddies and everyone else were good. Meanwhile Many countries in the "Free World" were super mean to their people and others. They had slaves, treated their citizens like crap, and were unstable, and U.S. did not say much about that at all. Granted i am sort of an isolationist, so i would talk quitly and carry a big stick and stay on my side of the fence. Look after my community first and everybody else second. Now a days it looks like it is the Civilized world vs. Terrists phrase. Very simple stuff here and easily digested by the cattle. I have not been studying this issue of Isral much. I agree that the Noconservatives have taken control of the GOP. This has lead to their unpopularity a round the world and in the States. Second week of November 2006 is fast approaching. I mean what was the deal with the Terry Shivow case study. No way the GOP of the 1980s would get invovled with a personal matter that involves the wishes of a husband that legally can make the discussion to end his wifes live. The repubs were bowing to their evangelical masters like no other. Plus it was an election year i think. And what was the deal with the 100 dollar check for gasoline high prices. What a joke. Glad that got rejected. These gusy just suck hard. Give me the GOP of the 1980s when they were for fiscical responsbility, retarded the Fed Government (not the military JK) and letting people live their gd life they want too. Not that it really matters. Both sides are total crap and put on a big show. Like i said before, politicans at that level is like wathing professional wrestling. Looks nasty, but at the end of the day they go party together. Yes!!! wrestling is fake. __________________ (PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member (CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader (LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html

07-20-2006, 04:31 PM	#3 (permalink)
AMosely Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maine Age: 34 Posts: 2,793	Re: Will Americans Join Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians as Neocon Victims? I can't believe I'm about to defend Bush and neoconservatives, but here goes... This writing is really overblowing things, and there are far too many generalizations and false statements to make it a debatable opinon. I've followed the Arab/Israeli conflict quite closely for 20 years and travelled through the region twice (including the West Bank and Lebanese border). I've also tracked the history of the neoconservative movement in America. This editorial falsely represents both. The question posed by Paul Craig Roberts is : "What explains the indifference of the Bush administration to the slaughter of civilians in Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza?" Thought I wouldn't exactly call it indifference (in fact in many ways it is the opposite, the American government cares quite deeply about the ongoing conflict), the imbalanced, pro-Israel view taken on by the current US administration is born out of criteria within the larger 'war on terror.' From the Bush administration's perspective, any country that houses, aids, or in any way facilitates terrorism is considered accountable for the actions of those terrorists, and any punishment that is dealt as a result. In some ways I think it unfair to categorize diplomatic status in such stark terms, but in another sense, controlling governments need to be held accountable for things that happen in their countries. If they turn a blind eye and claim indifference, as has happened in Lebanon and Gaza, there is at least some justification in their losses (both civilian and infrastructure). 'Slaughter' is also a poor choice of words when it comes to the combat we have witnessed thus far, and if used to describe what is happening to Lebanese civilians, can similarly be used to describe what is happening to Israeli civilians. Every battle in this region for the past 60 years (and more) has involved civilian casualties on both sides. Such is war fought in a dense theater. It is tragic, but all parties are losing, and all parties are to blame. Lastly, the statement "Neoconservatives believe that the US and Israel can extirpate Islam with fire and sword and that the present opportunity to escalate the current conflict into generalized war in the Middle East must not be missed" is completely false (and I assume 'extirpate' is meant to be 'exterminate.') Neoconservatives believe that all world countries should essentially be constructed in America's democratic image, or at least run by governments that accept America's leadership and principles. This is an arrogant and selfish view, but this is far from a call to exterminate Islam, or any other race or culture that refuses to accept the American brand of democracy. If you care to become more educated about neocons, I suggest starting at their homepage - http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html. (edit to add PNAC link)

07-21-2006, 01:22 AM	#5 (permalink)
Switchcraft Join Date: May 2003 Location: New York, NY Age: 31 Posts: 1,096	Re: Will Americans Join Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians as Neocon Victims? Um, isn't ever hezbollah member going to be described as a civilian when they die? Isn't it funny that the author can call Israelis "cowardly" for doing something to stop the slaughter of their people, but has no such words for hezbollah, or hamas? Hamas launch nearly 1,000 rockets into Israel over the last year at civilian populations...I bet he never wrote such a one-sided article about that as long as Israel behaved itself and didn't hit back. In fat, in his article he doesn't mention at all that there are two sides to this conflict. He quotes Bolton as saying so, but then scoffs at thim. Reading this, te author would have you believe the Israelis just woke up one day and decided to go around bombing civilians. And the stuff about the Arab world hating Israel more for this is obvious crap. The major governments out there are actually blaming hezbollah and hamas for doing this. A Wahhabi in Saudi Arabia has issued a a fatwa making it "unlawful to support, join or pray for Hezbollah." So the Arab world isn't hating Israel more for this "cowardly" defense of their people. Yet another one-sided article from a shrill idealogue with no moral backbone.

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