We kicked the Japanese butts ! - Page 3

Pickle · 08-16-2006, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

That's not saying much considering you aren't a visible minority who has to deal with racism that actually affects your life. Just because you can laugh off a racist comment doesn't mean other should have to. But I guess that's the benefit of being the majority.

And you know I haven't dealt with being discriminated against how? Oh that's right, I am white and therefore it is impossible to be discriminated against. I need to remember that it is okay to use a derrogatory term against white people because of the color of their skin. At least that is what you are saying. Speaking of minorities, the Japanese have been the aggressive majority in that region for a long time until recently. So using the this argument it must be okay to speak ill of them, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Do you even know a Japanese person? How can you be the judge of what classifies as racist to them?

I have family that live in Japan and it is not an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

One of my good friends in high school was Japanese, and he did consider "Jap" a derogatory term. And I can't really blame him.

Depends on the context. If we are talking about a WWII vet that uses that term with the same inflection as "pal" or "buddy" he might need some thicker skin. If the term is meant in a negative way then he has an argument. An argument I won't take him up on because of the intent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Yea, I know a few people who claim this same deal: "It's just a word, it doesn't mean I respect their race any less." It's usually BS.

And sometimes it is true. Maybe your circle of friends can't be honest with their words and how they mesh with thir feelings. I did several hours of interviews with my grandfather on tape. I think I know him better than you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

So, if I simply call black people "darkies," that's ok because it's not racist? Because I say so?

No because there is a very long history there with this term.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Our grandparents grew up in a time where most minorities had no rights to speak of. A time when white people thought they were better than everyone else. There was no "PC" because it was perfectly acceptable to call a grown black man "boy." Or to shout other racist remarks at minorities.

Can't disagree with you here. But that is a bit off topic or at least skewed. I hardly think that shortening a country or nationality name is racist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

It really irks me that your equating entrenched racism in this country with "Political Correctness."

I am glad that you are irked with something I wasn't equating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Put it this way: would you walk up to a Japanese person you just met and ask "Are you a Jap?"

Nope. 1 it would be disrespectful and 2 they are the ones this discussion is about. Their grandfathers and fathers are. You know, the ones that started the war and contributed directly to roughly half of the 407,000 U.S. soldier's deaths. And if you take current U.S. law into account because they started the war they are culpbable for all of them. Yeah, I know this a thing string argument and I don't intend to stand on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

What about Italians?

I am not familiar with any derrogatory terms for Italians. Or at least what you would consider a derrogatory term. I have only referred to them as "Italians". I am sure you think I have a dictionary of racist terms to piss off the PC crowd.

**Dirtboy** · 08-16-2006, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Asians have it a bit rougher. They are a visible minority. .

Being Half Korean Half Finnish Desent, I am proud of both races, but there is still racism. There will ALWAYS be racism in the world, but what gets me is that the Asain community is a real easy target, bcuz face it...we look alike. I know the difference in us but the average caucasian does not. But I think that it should be a national holiday and celebration for DESTROYING those Imperialistic mofo's. The Japanese (WWII and before) came into Korea and cut down ALL of our trees and took the woman as sex slaves, I despise anyone who thinks that The U.S should be apoligize for dropping the 2 nukes. They didnt apoligize for stating it in the first place. We would have lost a million men if we invaded mainland Japan. They brainwashed there ppl in believing how evil we are(sounds familiar doesnt it). The only way to defeat a country or enemy is to ALL our resources available and end it as soon as possible. and that is what Truman did...and that is why I think that he should go on the $17 bill

**CingularDuality** · 08-16-2006, 05:44 AM

I think the holiday is fine. Our victory over the Japanese is a historical fact, and one that should be celebrated. Our little ol' country crushed a modern asian empire almost single handedly. Of course the Aussies and Brits helped a bit. <gasp> Was I just disrespectful? I shortened the name of their country to describe them! I hope they don't call us "Yanks", as that would be the ultimate pejorative, wouldn't it?

FWIW, I lived in Japan for a year. I grew up with friends that were of Japanese descent. The only people that I've EVER met that took offense to the term "Jap" has been uppity white folks that feel it's their place to ensure that Japanese people don't get offended by a nonoffensive word. It's one of the ultimate examples of the BS political correctness that is destroying our social structure.

**Wyzcrak** · 08-16-2006, 10:26 AM

I guess asking you to name which of us is the "uppity white folk" is too much drama for me.

Quagmire, indeed.

Steeler · 08-16-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pickle

And you know I haven't dealt with being discriminated against how? Oh that's right, I am white and therefore it is impossible to be discriminated against. I need to remember that it is okay to use a derrogatory term against white people because of the color of their skin. At least that is what you are saying.

I don't actually see him saying that. Is anyone saying that?

**TheFeniX** · 08-16-2006, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pickle

And you know I haven't dealt with being discriminated against how? Oh that's right, I am white and therefore it is impossible to be discriminated against.

I'm white and even I've dealt with racial dicrimination. There's a difference though, it's an exception not something I have to deal with everyday. That's a MAJOR issue with the majority: they tend to think that because THEY can't notice the bias or can just "laugh it off," that it's either not existent or isn't a problem.

That's not PC, that's reality.

Racism isn't a sound bite or comedy bit to many people: it's a fact of life.

Quote:

I need to remember that it is okay to use a derrogatory term against white people because of the color of their skin. At least that is what you are saying.

No, what I'm saying is that your ability to laugh of racism is marred by the fact that you are the majority in society. Racism directed at you is going to be an exception.

Quote:

Speaking of minorities, the Japanese have been the aggressive majority in that region for a long time until recently. So using the this argument it must be okay to speak ill of them, right?

It's never ok to be racist, and I'd like to see the demographics of your area if you're calling Japanese (not asians as a whole) the majority.

Maybe I'm just some hick, but I do remember the demographics from my high school: out of 2500 students, we had around 10 asians.

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I have family that live in Japan and it is not an issue.

Are they white? I doubt they go around telling the natives they're "Japs."

Quote:

Depends on the context. If we are talking about a WWII vet that uses that term with the same inflection as "pal" or "buddy" he might need some thicker skin. If the term is meant in a negative way then he has an argument. An argument I won't take him up on because of the intent.

So, if we claim we don't mean anything bad about calling another minority a racist name, it's ok because of our intent?

Quote:

And sometimes it is true. Maybe your circle of friends can't be honest with their words and how they mesh with thir feelings. I did several hours of interviews with my grandfather on tape. I think I know him better than you.

I assume you do, but you're also biased towards him. It took me a long time to accept it, but all but 1 of my grandparents (out of the 4) were racist to one extent or another. I wouldn't say they were active about it (wouldn't immediately discount a minority), but it was there.

And for the moment, let me give your grandfather the benefit of the doubt: during WW2 even Japanese American citizens were harassed and "rounded-up" as spies and collaboraters without any evidence. Is that not racism?

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No because there is a very long history there with this term.

60 years of use for the term "Jap" in a derogatory manner isn't enough? How long do we need? 100 years? 1000?

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Can't disagree with you here. But that is a bit off topic or at least skewed. I hardly think that shortening a country or nationality name is racist.

Superman agrees with you. NOTE: I find this picture insanely MORE ironic due to the director of the latest Superman movie cutting the "and the American way" out of the movie. Obviously, the American way has changed: we're only covert about our racism now.

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I am glad that you are irked with something I wasn't equating.

I covered this up top.

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Nope. 1 it would be disrespectful and 2 they are the ones this discussion is about. Their grandfathers and fathers are. You know, the ones that started the war and contributed directly to roughly half of the 407,000 U.S. soldier's deaths. And if you take current U.S. law into account because they started the war they are culpbable for all of them. Yeah, I know this a thing string argument and I don't intend to stand on it.

By this reasoning, every American citizen is responsible for every civilian death in Iraq.

But hey, we got them back: it took them years to kill 400,000 people: we did it with two bombs. Americans are anything if not efficient.

Quote:

I am not familiar with any derrogatory terms for Italians. Or at least what you would consider a derrogatory term. I have only referred to them as "Italians". I am sure you think I have a dictionary of racist terms to piss off the PC crowd.

I'm just making sure you knew that it wasn't just Germans and Japanese in the Axis. You might as well be complete with you ire.

**CingularDuality** · 08-16-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

I guess asking you to name which of us is the "uppity white folk" is too much drama for me.

Oh, I'd be glad to do it...

My point is that some people like to get offended for other people, when there is no offense taken by those other people. That's absurd and it happens more and more in the name of political correctness.

SmokingTarpan · 08-16-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pickle

I see your point and I knew this was coming up. I don't use derogatory terms toward anyone. Quite frankly I despise them. The only time I use the above terms is in reference to WWII period when quoting something else.

Interesting logic. So would you ever voice the sentence, "It's a shame we enslaved the nig****"? If not, it's time to revisit that logic. If so, well, time to revisit other things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

My point is that some people like to get offended for other people, when there is no offense taken by those other people. That's absurd and it happens more and more in the name of political correctness.

I played the MMO Final Fantasy XI for over a year. For those who don't know, it was a game that started in Japan and eventually opened to US players, which meant that the population on the servers was heavily Japanese. Mention the word "Jap" on the server, and pretty much every Japanese player got pissed at you. I actually became pretty good friends with a JP (how they abbreviated Japan/Japanese) player, and I actually asked him how people over there thought about the term "Jap". I was informed that most everyone is less than pleased with it, to say the least. I'm not necessarily on a high horse of morality here, but I'm passing along my first-hand experiences. On principle I hate PC, but there are times to step up.

Also, for general knowledge, either JPN or JP is the official abbreviation for the country Japan; not JAP. So no dice with that line of argument.

Steeler · 08-16-2006, 03:05 PM

While political correctness can get silly, the basic premise boils down to one simple rule:

1. Don't be a dick.

**leejo** · 08-16-2006, 04:21 PM

How ironic!!!

Pickle · 08-17-2006, 03:35 AM

Someone please tell the British folk that calling them "Brits" is derrogatory.

**CingularDuality** · 08-17-2006, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

Also, for general knowledge, either JPN or JP is the official abbreviation for the country Japan; not JAP. So no dice with that line of argument.

Says who? Considering that their country is called Nippon (or Nihon), I doubt that they abbreviate it JPN or JP.

I was referring to the nickname of people from certain countries. Why is it OK to refer to Yanks, Brits, Pakis, Aussies, Russkies, Guats, ElSals, and who knows how many shortened national nicknames aren't coming to mind right now, but not to Japs?

Can anyone explain to me exactly what is derogatory about the term "Jap"? What is it about that word that is supposed to offend someone from that country?

**sordavie** · 08-17-2006, 05:11 AM

Some philosophy of language follows. I take it there is nothing inherently offensive about any words. Words afterall are just sequences of sounds or strings of characters. The meaning a word takes on derives from its use in a linguistic community. A word may take on offensive connotations in a linguistic community if it becomes convention that the term is used in a derogatory way. From what I can tell, 'Jap' has taken on derogatory or discriminatory connotations, while terms like 'Brit' or 'Aussie' have not. That's the difference.

There are at least two types of meaning. One, we might call speakers meaning. That's what a particular speaker intends to mean by the words he utters. Another kind of meaning we might call sentence or word meaning. This is the sort of meaning I mention in the first paragraph. It comes from conventions regarding use of a term in a linguistic community. Sentence meaning can be found in a dictionary. A dictionary basically records what conventions there are regarding words of say English. To answer Cing's question, what is it about a word that is supposed to offend people: conventions regarding use of the word. How are these conventions made up? Nobody sits around and stipulates meanings for words, they arise naturally during human interaction. That's one thing that seems to make humans much more special than other animals. We are very good at giving rise to complex natural languages.

We can see how speaker meaning and sentence meaning might come apart in a given situation. Pickle did not intend to use the term 'Jap' in a derogatory way. However, it seems evident that the current conventions regarding use of that term are negative. Even if you don't intend to mean anything derogatory by uttering the word, intentions are not always easy to get across. Further, without sentence meaning, or general conventions regarding use of terms in a community, we wouldn't be able to communicate with each other. So, sentence meanings play a large part in our communication. It is often the default means of interpreting what somebody means. PC is sometimes taken to ridiculous extremes, but I find people who preach antiPC don't really understand what PC really is. Someone else said it here, PC is really simple: think about how what you say might affect others. This includes thinking about how what you say will be interpreted by others. Don't be so pretentious as to think the intentions behind everything you utter will be clear as day to everyone around you. That's so especially if you intend to use a word in a way is not inline with its common usage.

Note that these general conventions can change over time. That's how the meanings of words change over time. Maybe 'Jap' started out as an abbreviation of the term 'Japanese' and carried no offensive connotations. Perhaps it carried them right from the beginning. I don't know the etymology of the term. That would be easy to look up and find out though. But, look in any dictionary or slang dictionary that contains the term and you will see that currently there are offensive connotations associated with the term. There really is no question why has this term taken on this meaning. You can ask that of any term at all. Why does 'the' mean what it does? There is no deep answer to that. Fact is, it has it. And, fact is, 'Jap' is a racial slur.

The nonextremist PC crowd only ask that you realize this is an offensive term and that you be mindful of your use and your audience, just as you do with terms like 'nigger' or words that get censored by this site.

PS. A common convention regarding use of double and single quote marks is to reserve single quote marks when referring to a word, phrase, or character. That is, when you have something in single quotes you are referring to the string of letters between the marks. Double quote marks are used to indicate use of a word or phrase or use of them in some nonstandard way.

**WhiskeySix** · 08-17-2006, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sordavie

Some philosophy of language follows.

wow, what a post sordavie! thanks for dropping the science +rep

08-16-2006, 05:44 AM	#33 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 16,637	Re: I am glad we kicked the Japs butts!! I think the holiday is fine. Our victory over the Japanese is a historical fact, and one that should be celebrated. Our little ol' country crushed a modern asian empire almost single handedly. Of course the Aussies and Brits helped a bit. <gasp> Was I just disrespectful? I shortened the name of their country to describe them! I hope they don't call us "Yanks", as that would be the ultimate pejorative, wouldn't it? FWIW, I lived in Japan for a year. I grew up with friends that were of Japanese descent. The only people that I've EVER met that took offense to the term "Jap" has been uppity white folks that feel it's their place to ensure that Japanese people don't get offended by a nonoffensive word. It's one of the ultimate examples of the BS political correctness that is destroying our social structure. __________________ Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

08-16-2006, 10:26 AM	#34 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,138	Re: I am glad we kicked the Japs butts!! I guess asking you to name which of us is the "uppity white folk" is too much drama for me. Quagmire, indeed. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

08-16-2006, 03:05 PM	#39 (permalink)
Steeler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Taxachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 2,921	Re: I am glad we kicked the Japs butts!! While political correctness can get silly, the basic premise boils down to one simple rule: 1. Don't be a dick. __________________

08-16-2006, 04:21 PM	#40 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,524	Re: I am glad we kicked the Japs butts!! How ironic!!!

08-17-2006, 03:35 AM	#41 (permalink)
Pickle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Land of Fruit and Nuts! Age: 35 Posts: 1,281	Re: I am glad we kicked the Japs butts!! Someone please tell the British folk that calling them "Brits" is derrogatory. __________________ "Umm Deputy these aren't my pants" - Common alarm cry of the North American Crackhead [tg-c1][ma-c1][defense]

08-17-2006, 05:11 AM	#43 (permalink)
sordavie Join Date: Nov 2005 Age: 27 Posts: 1,921	Re: I am glad we kicked the Japs butts!! Some philosophy of language follows. I take it there is nothing inherently offensive about any words. Words afterall are just sequences of sounds or strings of characters. The meaning a word takes on derives from its use in a linguistic community. A word may take on offensive connotations in a linguistic community if it becomes convention that the term is used in a derogatory way. From what I can tell, 'Jap' has taken on derogatory or discriminatory connotations, while terms like 'Brit' or 'Aussie' have not. That's the difference. There are at least two types of meaning. One, we might call speakers meaning. That's what a particular speaker intends to mean by the words he utters. Another kind of meaning we might call sentence or word meaning. This is the sort of meaning I mention in the first paragraph. It comes from conventions regarding use of a term in a linguistic community. Sentence meaning can be found in a dictionary. A dictionary basically records what conventions there are regarding words of say English. To answer Cing's question, what is it about a word that is supposed to offend people: conventions regarding use of the word. How are these conventions made up? Nobody sits around and stipulates meanings for words, they arise naturally during human interaction. That's one thing that seems to make humans much more special than other animals. We are very good at giving rise to complex natural languages. We can see how speaker meaning and sentence meaning might come apart in a given situation. Pickle did not intend to use the term 'Jap' in a derogatory way. However, it seems evident that the current conventions regarding use of that term are negative. Even if you don't intend to mean anything derogatory by uttering the word, intentions are not always easy to get across. Further, without sentence meaning, or general conventions regarding use of terms in a community, we wouldn't be able to communicate with each other. So, sentence meanings play a large part in our communication. It is often the default means of interpreting what somebody means. PC is sometimes taken to ridiculous extremes, but I find people who preach antiPC don't really understand what PC really is. Someone else said it here, PC is really simple: think about how what you say might affect others. This includes thinking about how what you say will be interpreted by others. Don't be so pretentious as to think the intentions behind everything you utter will be clear as day to everyone around you. That's so especially if you intend to use a word in a way is not inline with its common usage. Note that these general conventions can change over time. That's how the meanings of words change over time. Maybe 'Jap' started out as an abbreviation of the term 'Japanese' and carried no offensive connotations. Perhaps it carried them right from the beginning. I don't know the etymology of the term. That would be easy to look up and find out though. But, look in any dictionary or slang dictionary that contains the term and you will see that currently there are offensive connotations associated with the term. There really is no question why has this term taken on this meaning. You can ask that of any term at all. Why does 'the' mean what it does? There is no deep answer to that. Fact is, it has it. And, fact is, 'Jap' is a racial slur. The nonextremist PC crowd only ask that you realize this is an offensive term and that you be mindful of your use and your audience, just as you do with terms like 'nigger' or words that get censored by this site. PS. A common convention regarding use of double and single quote marks is to reserve single quote marks when referring to a word, phrase, or character. That is, when you have something in single quotes you are referring to the string of letters between the marks. Double quote marks are used to indicate use of a word or phrase or use of them in some nonstandard way. __________________

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