Beatnik

Nice post, Mr. Chomsky.

That quote in particular was great. I (an admitted grammar nazi in most situations, typos notwithstanding) had long forgotten the difference between single and double quote marks, and have used them pretty much interchangably for years.

__________________

WhiskeySix

ok.. so thread title aside, what about V-J Day?

__________________

CingularDuality

And, as I've said, from my experience living in Japan, I've found exactly the opposite: that Japanese folks don't care at all about the term "Jap".

What Sordavie ignored is the fact that people are claiming offense for a group of people that aren't claiming offense. The first person of Japanese descent that posts here claiming offense will get an apology from me on behalf of Pickle (IF they explain why they find it offensive).

Awesome. Like Beatnik, I had been using them incorrectly, too. I only used single quotes within double quotes.

So, when referring to the term "Jap" and its usage, double quotes should be used?

__________________

Become a supporting member! -- Shop at the Tactical Market!

Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

sordavie

There are lots of conventions regarding use of quote marks. So, it's hard to tell when you're using them correctly or incorrectly. Best bet is to use some set of rules that's published in a popular writer's handbook and be consistent. The dominant convention may differ with regard to where you're located and other similar factors. The MLA handbook probably has good rules to follow, if you live in the states. The one I mentioned has mainly been adopted by philosophers and linguists. It hasn't caught on much in the general population, although it's starting to, for two reasons: they don't read much technical philosophy or linguistics and they don't talk about language to make much use for a use/mention distinction. But, it's really a very useful distinction to make. The rule is basically this: single quotes are for mentioning a word and double quotes are for using a word.

When mentioning the word you want to use single quotes. Compare these two sentences:

1. Kittens begins with the 11th letter of the alphabet.
2. 'Kittens' begins with the 11th letter of the alphabet.

The first sentence doesn't make any sense. The single quote marks in the second sentence let the reader know that you're talking about the word 'kittens' and not "kittens." Notice how I used both types of quote marks in the last sentence. When using a word use double quotes.

As for whether to use single or double quotes when talking about 'Japs' it really depends on the circumstances. Here I use single quotes because I'm mentioning the word and not using it. That is, I'm talking about the word beginning with a 'j' and ending with an 's' and not a group of people with a common ethnicity. Usually there is not much need to use double quoets when distinguishing between use and mention, since the default way of interpreting English sentences is that the words are being used. But, there some situations where using them helps the audience parse the sentence with more ease - such as the above sentence regarding 'kittens' and "kittens."

As for VJ Day, I don't really have an opinion. I only wanted to try and answer the question: "why some words are offensive and others aren't, even if they seem to be derived in a similar manner?" I don't know whether VJ Day stands for "victory over the japanese day" or "victory over japs day." Even if it were the latter, connotations of individual words don't necessarily carry over to the phrase of which it's a component. I just don't know enough about how the phrase is used, it's etymology, or what the holiday is about to have an educated opinion.

I think even if a certain group of people don't claim offense that a particular word is being used, it doesn't mean that word isn't offensive. Even if no group claimed that 'nigger' was offensive to their ears, I take it, the word is still an offensive word. That's so given the history of usage for that word. It's how the meaning of the word has evolved in English. It's a word, if used correctly, carries offensive connotations. That may change over time if future generations of the linguistic community develop different conventions regarding the word, but that's just part of what the word means currently. There may be many reasons why a group doesn't claim the term is offensive. They may be ignorant about the meaning of the term - this actually seems to be the case within some groups in the US with the word 'nigger'. They may not care, even if they do find it offensive. I'm sure you can think of other scenarios.

In general, a word is offensive because a user intends to offend with it - not the other way around, where a word is offensive if the audience finds it offensive, as it sounds like some of you are claiming. A word, in general, isn't offensive because the audience finds it offensive. That's not how the dependencies go. As I said, words gain their meaning by conventions for use. Conventions for interpreting words comes, logically, later than conventions for use. Conventions for interpretation depend on there being, in the first place, conventions for use. So, it's not whether the audience finds the word offensive but whether the word is used offensively. The claim is that 'jap' is, when used correctly, a racial slur. That's so whether or not the speaker's audience interprets it that way. If I were the hypothesize why some proponents of PC make outrageous, ridiculous remarks, I'd say it's because they think that something is offensive just because the audience judges it as offensive. Of course, you will be able to find someone. somewhere who finds anything you pick offensive. This, I think, is the fallacy they make and the reason why they say such silly things. But, you shouldn't take them as representative of what PC really is.

__________________

WhiskeySix

I actually thought it was 'Victory over Japan' day - which is less dubious to me... as it references the now expired, imperialisitic government rather than the ethnicity.

__________________

leejo

Righto. I'm a big fan of VJ day, mostly because both my grandfathers had very nice stories of the soldiers' celebration. Both served in Europe and truly dreaded getting shipped out west.

With regard to "Jap", IMO it's a pretty mild term, but I wouldn't call a Japanese buddy "my favorite Jap" or congratulate him for a Japtastic shot. Also, when I was a little guy by grandfather taught me to count seconds by saying "one dead jap, two dead jap, three..." so...

It's not the worst word in the world but it's not a nice word or a very friendly word, IMO, and few have accused me of being overly PC.

What's interesting to me is how much media has changed war. Can anyone imagine a VI day or a VME day? We no longer seek to defeat an enemy so much as...hell I don't know. What do we do now? Use force and diplomacy to negotiate a mutually-agreable resolution to conflict?

God forbid that a modern democracy ever declare "victory" again. Such an ugly word, and demeaning to the "victims".

Beatnik

"Victory" today would require a defined nation/military to have a victory over, not a guerilla insurgency that we see in Iraq. I don't see a lack of pronouncement of victory being related to the media at all. We sought to defeat Afghanistan and did exactly that.

I do seem to remember a "Mission Accomplished" event on an Aircraft Carrier about 3 years ago. Whatever happened with that?

__________________

leejo

haven't we been over that? Speaking of which, though, I can't wait to see Sen. Clinton's Dukakis moment. I think Kerry's was the bunny suit, but there were a few other good candidates: the bounced pitch at the yankees game, the football on the tarmac.

Every time some damn hippy whines about the mission accomplished thing, it evokes the image of the Prez in the flight suit. You gotta admit, it's a pretty boss photo op. So bring it.

And for God's sake get a candidate who doesn't look like a fool on a ball field or a uniform! It's going to come up!

Kidding about the hippie thing, hippie.

HBrutusH

Regardless of whether a word is racist or not, you should simply not use it out of respect to whomever you are using it too, if they don't want you to, of course.
I don't really think there's an argument here.

About 'VJ day': I'm not American, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of Europeans would be angry if you abolished VE Day because of PC.

__________________
<<<<Magic!!




-F- Concr3te: "Brutus, goddammit, shut up!"

Pickle

__________________

Tarenth

The first thing that came to me was this:
Heh. July 2nd was when the US officially decided to be independent from England and July 4th was when the Declaration of Independence was ratified by the 2nd Continental Congress. The victory over England didn't happen until the Treaty of Paris in 1783 and has nothing to do with July 4th. As it stands the person speaking in this except already has no leg to stand on.

About the word 'Jap':
Jap, Kraut, and Charlie are probably the easiest slang/code words to remember. They were used during their respective wars in order to 'dehumanize' the oposition. Its easier to order your soldiers to kill someone if they think of them as just a word instead of a living breathing person. As such, use of those words today could be considered derogatory since its original purpose was to classify someone as "less than human" in a time of war. Similar to how nigger was used to turn people into property because they were "less than human".

'Jap' in Japan:
CingularDuality brings up the use of 'Jap' in Japan and the only way I can think to respond to that is with this. Its a scene from Rush hour where Chris Rock and Jackie Chan walk into a Pool Bar. Its not a perfect clip, but it hits a point. If you're not familiar with this film then the jist is Chris Rock walks into a Pool Bar and says "What's up my nigga" to the bartender who just smiles and nods. Later Jackie Chan says the same line and a fight breaks out.

Racial slurs carry less meaning and are often time used as jokes with people who have no history of hostility to each other. Its meaning and value as an insult is also usually diminished when the subject in question is the majority. Call a caucasian man a cracker in a caucasian majority community and he will laugh. Do it again when he is in the minority and he will feel threatened or insulted. Mostly because racial slurs are insulting when it is in the form of a majority showing dominance over a minority by deaming them something not equal to them.

Of V-J Day:
I can actually see the point they are making and at the very least they could change it to V-P for Victory in the Pacific just like we use V-E for Victory in Europe instead of V-G for Victory over Germany. In reality the war was fought all over the Pacfic Ocean and the only place where fighting didn't happen would be Japan.

Vets will do what Vets do because they're Vets. They fought and died for the right to do whatever they want because it is with their blood did they pay the butcher's bill with. However the official stance should use less confrontational terms because, lets face it, its offensive to people. If it wasn't offensive to people then there really wouldn't be a problem.


But hey! If V-J is fine with you then I suggest we make an official holiday called V-S on May 26. Victory over the South. Then we can say we beat the crap out of the Southern Confederte States of America and their violations of human liberties with the practice of slavery. Calling people in the south Grey Backs (slang for Confederate soldiers saying they are like lice) should be fine too because it has a fine tradition in a war time setting. Of course, people wouldn't know you're insulting them because its so old...but that's better for PC isn't it? We really should practice the victory of the Union over the Southern States because they did start a war that cost over 500,000 American lives.

You give the same reasons for why VJ is a legitimate holiday that could be said for any victory of any war. If the reasons are the same for every instance, but the practice is not made, then there has been an exception that defies the reasons given.

__________________
My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.

Silas Ender

We won, and destroyed our enemy. That's something to be proud of, and something to remember for many reasons(Not least of which is the tragic American losses caused by Japanese aggression ) . Do I care if we hurt anyone's feelings? Nope. The message is a good one: If you attack us, we will obliterate you, and mark the victorious conclusion with a celebratory holiday. This is about defeating your enemy and ending a very costly conflict in victory. Making noise about it being racist is absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of the conflict.

It's called Victory over Japan day because we were fighting the Japanese empire, not the rest of the pacific. Don't tell me anyone thinks that it's "not nice" to actually specify which evil we were fighting in the Pacific?

__________________
Life in Bogota is a lot like a big box of Colombian chocolates. You never know when you'll get blown up by the FARC.

leejo

Great idea. They beat you to it though. It's called "Memorial Day", and I can assure you there are plenty not-nice names people use to refer to southerners. I also know that when I attended high school in Massachusetts I experienced ample snootiness about my home state and accent. Pay attention to any Simpsons, Family Guy, Tarrantino film, etc. and see how Southerners are portrayed in entertainment. I may just be a dumb hick redneck Texas cowboy hillbilly racist illiterate Jesus freak homophobe though.

Steeler

Too easy.

__________________

Tarenth

Yeah but VS day would be so much better than Memorial Day because it sends a direct message. I mean we won, and destroyed our enemy. That's something to be proud of, and something to remember for many reasons (Not least of which is the tragic American losses caused by Southern aggression ) . Do I care if we hurt anyone's feelings? Nope. The message is a good one: If you attack us, we will obliterate you, and mark the victorious conclusion with a celebratory holiday. This is about defeating your enemy and ending a very costly conflict in victory. Making noise about it being racist is absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of the conflict.

It's called Victory over the South day because we were fighting the Southern Confederate Nation, not some day for general rememberance. Don't tell me anyone thinks that it's "not nice" to actually specify which evil we were fighting in the southern states?


I love how I can Copy and Paste Silas Ender's response and use it again with some editing. ^_^ The "we're doing it this way because we kick butt" line doesn't really fly in a global community. After times of war you will have times of peace where you have to live and deal with those people on a regular basis. It isn't very diplomatic to consistantly rub the nose of a racial group into an event that has supposedly been done and forgiven. Yes the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Yes we beat the crap out of them in World War 2. Yes we occupied and practically ran their country for them for several years changing their culture and language permanently. Yes we now live as close allies and have people crossing borders to live together in peace. Yes we now work together in the global community with business and humanitarian ventures.

Is it really appropriate to say every year "Hey...you know we're friends and all, but I just want to remind you we totally ripped you a new one in that war over 60 years ago".

Its like celebrating every fight you ever won against your friend with a few drinks and a loud proclaimation "Oh yeah! I beat the crap out of my best friend a few years back in a fight we had while drunk" every...single...year. You usually just forgive, forget, and move on.

Now on a memorial day that marks the end of a costly war we should never forget. No one is saying to do away with the holiday altogether. Just name it something different so the message isn't so blatently challenging as it is now. That's not good PC, that's just good Diplomacy.

__________________
My sanity is not in question...
It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.