Evolution vs Creationism - Page 10

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

I'm still waiting for Dudeman's examples of Poker's circular logic.

*sits back and grabs popcorn*

I HAVE SAID IN VARIOUS THREADS AND ILLUSTRATED, IF YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO READ THE THREADS, THEN GO AHEAD AND SIT ON THE FENCE.

and speaking of sitting on the fence, you offer no actual discussion so far to this thread only critisism of puntuation. i have no desire to prove my vocab or written skills to you.

if you have nothing constructive to say, butt out, because you were the one were you not, complaining earlier about how you do not participate because all you get is people with attitudes critisising and not participating. yet on que here you are, doing the exact thing you hate so much about the sand box forum.

grab your popcorn and eat it, because anything else that seems to be said here from you is not worth a toss,

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 07:21 PM

Quote:

I find HILARIOUS that you hold more stock in the depiction of truth in the Bibile than I do. The evolution of morality is readily apparent, culminatiing in Jesus in the Gospels, and YOU'RE the one bible thumping that the Old Testament passages on the destruction of pagans is Christian truth.

pokerface contrary to your beliefs i am not ignorant to the bible, and i have read the bible,

it seems to me i surpirse you because i talk about its content?

Fait_Maker · 07-28-2004, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceCold

Best post in this thread so far. Very well said.

And as to the last paragraph, well, god's supposed to be merciful and all knowing, right? If he exists as the bible says, he wouldn't damn me for my logical thoughts and skepticism without first proving his existence in some way.

Besides.. If "God" does exist, he's Atheist too... Now that's profound.

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceCold

Semantics. Dudeman used his double negative properly. They do NOT just "cancel" without changing the meaning of his statement. Just because something is not a negative doesn't mean it is a positive.

thank you,

if i had said something along the lines of,

i dont know nothing, then yes i agree that means i do know something, but my statement did not make the statement a posotive,

infact the only way you can misconcieve it, is byt the fact i said, but i dont believe it,

therefore i admit that could be taken to mean, i am saying it never happened, but i clarified that point in the earlier text.

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =luna=

Here's another translation:

Dudeman: "Look, if God decides to invite me for a cup of tea and we play a few games of JO together, I'll totally believe he exists. Until he provides me with something obvious and convincing, I'll stick with believing that he likely does not exist."

How was that, Dudeman?

too be honest as iceman pointed out, my phrasing while complex (aparantly) is correct in conveying my original statement.

but anyone of the two statements you have issued are also equally agreeable with mine.

Fait_Maker · 07-28-2004, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geisha

I tried to answer _Benny's question from what I've been told by people who do believe, and I'm thanking Cing for adding something to my husband's repertoire. I'll admit to some idle curiosity, but no real active desire to either find an answer myself or change anyone else's minds. Good job, phyllis, on filling in some of the major points; whether anyone agrees with them or not, I believe THAT is what _Benny was asking for, and not just arguments about the definition of "Faith."

Cheers, everyone!

You sound like my wife. I'm Atheist. She's Apathetic

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Hey, neat!! I'm going to print that out for Greg's stack of articles for Myria and Veronica next time they bring over a Christian World pamphlet. Greg says conversion is a two-way street. As long as he's having fun

sorry cing evidentally i did not post my apreciation for that link, i am reading it all and printing that out, great find.

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

No.
If there be no higher purpose to existence, then all paths are equal. Belief in a higher power is still a guiding factor, regardless of the existence of that higher power.

Actually, I think anyone without something to believe in is unguided. I've been trying to be very specific with my wording here; "God" and "Christianity" don't enter into this. "Higher purpose" has been the phrase I've been trying to drive home most of the time. SOMETHING outside yourself, something viewed as a good for its own sake as opposed to a good because it helps good things happen to you.

I don't believe in God, per se. I believe in a higher order of spirituality (you can slap "Hi My Name Is God" on its lapel if you really want to).

in one swoop you have labled me mis guided and everyother personmisguided because we do not believe in a higher power or spirituality. that is simply not true, i dont believe in a higher power but i believe in living my life in a morally good and poleasurable way, i believe in doing whatever makes me happy, does this mean i am misguided no, not at all.

Fait_Maker · 07-28-2004, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

Answer: God is uncreated. God was everything until he started to separate out light from darkness and create "Creation". Bone up on that mythology.

To apply the rules of creation to God is silly.

Answer: The Universe is uncreated. The Universe was everything until it started to separate out light from darkness and create "Creation". Applying the rules to God isn't silly at all. You say the Universe had to be created. I say so does God. You say he's been here forever. I say the Universe could have been too. I am simply using the arguments theist use and applying it to their situation. It simply isn't logical for you to believe one is here for all time and the other MUST have been created.

Quote:

Penguins DO have feathers.

My apologies. I wrote quickly. Penguins have feathers. They just don't fly. They swim with flippers. Why? Evolution?

Quote:

But if morals can be independent of religion, why is a theist's belief in the morals laid down by a Christian God a resignation of reasoning? What if said theist arrived at all of the moral conclusions and then took note that Christianity hit the nail on the head?

Haven't met a theist like that yet, that I'm aware of.

Quote:

Let's assume for the moment that God is perfect.
God then says "Thou Shalt Not Murder."
Here's the big money question: Did God just create truth, or merely declare it? Would He utter as a commandment anything else BESIDES the truth?
Truth, much like God (actually EXACTLY like God), simply IS.
Now, this line of reasoning doesn't necessarily apply to all of the commandments; killing, lying, and marital infidelity are really the big three. The others aren't viewed in the universal light that those three are, and in THOSE an argument could be easily made for some crowd-control measure by the powers-that-were.

Declared it, would be my choice. I don't honor my father because he never honored me. He left when I was 9 and is generally a piece of ****. Am I immoral? Would it be immoral of me to have an infidelity if my wife did it to me? Eye for an eye and all that... Truth is subjective. What may be true from your viewpoint isn't necessarily the truth from mine. You can tell me the truth, as you know it, and still be telling me a falsehood.

Quote:

A Christian doesn't HAVE to do jack squat. :P Free will and all.

Everyone DOES recognize that times change -- like you said, when the last time a stubborn son got stoned to death? The Bible is an historical document just as much as it is a ledger on life, and as such, it chronicles how life used to be, down to the rules that everyone lived by.
As to THAT rule... well, let's compare the sources as they're given in the narrative that is the Bible.
The Ten Commandments, making their appearance in Exodus 20, come directly from God. Deuteronomy as a whole is spoken by Moses after the Promised Land had already been attained. So we get ten lines from the Big Man, and 34 chapters from Moses. I think the reults of this biblical game of "telephone" are clear to see.
God in his wisdom knew that times were subject to change, and so he picked ten things out that were to be held as timeless. You and I can bounce Leviticus 18 back and forth for a while, if you want, but my postulate is that God picked ten that matter, and man made up the rest around it.

I submit that those 10 rules to live by existed in the societies prior to "god" printing them on a tablet. How did they come to be? Morality exists without a belief in god.

IceCold · 07-28-2004, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

I submit that those 10 rules to live by existed in the societies prior to "god" printing them on a tablet. How did they come to be? Morality exists without a belief in god.

Indeed .

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

Answer: The Universe is uncreated. The Universe was everything until it started to separate out light from darkness and create "Creation". Applying the rules to God isn't silly at all. You say the Universe had to be created. I say so does God. You say he's been here forever. I say the Universe could have been too. I am simply using the arguments theist use and applying it to their situation. It simply isn't logical for you to believe one is here for all time and the other MUST have been created.

My apologies. I wrote quickly. Penguins have feathers. They just don't fly. They swim with flippers. Why? Evolution?

Haven't met a theist like that yet, that I'm aware of.

Declared it, would be my choice. I don't honor my father because he never honored me. He left when I was 9 and is generally a piece of ****. Am I immoral? Would it be immoral of me to have an infidelity if my wife did it to me? Eye for an eye and all that... Truth is subjective. What may be true from your viewpoint isn't necessarily the truth from mine. You can tell me the truth, as you know it, and still be telling me a falsehood.

I submit that those 10 rules to live by existed in the societies prior to "god" printing them on a tablet. How did they come to be? Morality exists without a belief in god.

very well put argument fait, i tried to elaborate on your penguin theory before, although i have to admit i didnt know if they did have feathers, but i did touch on them not flying, but swimming. i thought you must have been going in this direction..

and your end statement is bang on,

**CingularDuality** · 07-28-2004, 10:19 PM

I just wanted to say that I'm surprised and impressed at how civil this discussion has been. I've been in many discussions like this one and have never seen any of them last this long without turning into a flamefest.

wickerman · 07-28-2004, 10:23 PM

I was about to post the same thing - 10 pages and only a very small number of flame-type posts. It's really an interesting topic to debate if both sides maintain a civil tone.

**phyllis** · 07-28-2004, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

I just wanted to say that I'm surprised and impressed at how civil this discussion has been. I've been in many discussions like this one and have never seen any of them last this long without turning into a flamefest.

Heh...I thought the same thing earlier this evening...as a matter of fact...I told Luna last night that I wondered how long it'd last before it got out of hand...I must say, TG members have impressed me, and proved me wrong, if I'd have had to bet money this thread would have made it nearly this far...I'da lost

...thanks guys for keeping it civil !

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

I just wanted to say that I'm surprised and impressed at how civil this discussion has been. I've been in many discussions like this one and have never seen any of them last this long without turning into a flamefest.

ill second that,

07-28-2004, 10:19 PM	#147 (permalink)
CingularDuality Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth area of Texas, USA Age: 33 Posts: 17,137	Re: Evolution vs Creationism I just wanted to say that I'm surprised and impressed at how civil this discussion has been. I've been in many discussions like this one and have never seen any of them last this long without turning into a flamefest. __________________ Become a supporting member! Buy a Tactical Duck! Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage." TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

07-28-2004, 10:23 PM	#148 (permalink)
wickerman Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 37 Posts: 230	Re: Evolution vs Creationism I was about to post the same thing - 10 pages and only a very small number of flame-type posts. It's really an interesting topic to debate if both sides maintain a civil tone.

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