Evolution vs Creationism - Page 12

Fait_Maker · 07-29-2004, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

I have researched most other religions. christianity is the only one that makes sense to me. every other religion puts the burden of salvation on us. what could you possibly do to earn salvation a supreme being? what could an ant do to earn salvation you? answer. nothing. salvation is offered by God, or by you to the ant. you feel pity for the ant on some level and grant it life or kill it. It can do nothing to earn life. now aply this to a Perfect God of love and mercy. He gave a way to get out of death. muslims must die in a jihad for thier God to get to heaven. Christians had thier God die for them. no sacrifice a human can make is worthy enough for a God. only a God can give a sacrifice worthy enough.

like I said, humans pervert God and what he is. he has nothing to prove to us.

again I make statements through the lens of christiaity, so please forgive my digression into a more religious tone. God needs no one or nothing to defend him. I am not trying to do this either. I hope however, that possibly someone will see a little truth in what I say.

Why would I care about a salvation by "god"? If your god exists than he made the rules. He created everything including evil. He created Satan. He is responsible for everything. Where was my free will when Eve bit the fruit? How can I POSSIBLY have had a choice of free will if I was born a sinner needing to be saved by God for something he put into place in the first place. What kind of morbid, sadistic entity is the biblical god anyway?

I don't feel pity for the ant nor do I wish to kill it or make it pay or make it serve me. I guess that would put me on the higher road than god.. huh?

If God doesn't need defending, why do 2 Billion Christians do so instead of letting us live in peace? You know the old saying "If God doesn't like me, let him tell me.. not you". That really fits here. I think if more people actually *practiced* Islam or Christianity, we wouldn't have so much death and destruction. That's just my view and quite frankly.. I'm tired.

**Pokerface** · 07-29-2004, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

I don't feel pity for the ant nor do I wish to kill it or make it pay or make it serve me. I guess that would put me on the higher road than god.. huh?

No. The God of Christianity may WANT the devotion of man, but he isn't about to make us do so. And he certainly isn't up for making us pay or killing us. Why is it the naysayers are so fixated on the Old Testament here?

Quote:

If God doesn't need defending, why do 2 Billion Christians do so instead of letting us live in peace? You know the old saying "If God doesn't like me, let him tell me.. not you". That really fits here.

God doesn't need defending, but the ideas of people do. And at the MOST basic, God is an idea.

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I think if more people actually *practiced* Islam or Christianity, we wouldn't have so much death and destruction.

Amen. Or whatever word you wish to use to express agreement.

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That's just my view and quite frankly.. I'm tired.

After this thread, I think we all have right to be tired.

**Pokerface** · 07-29-2004, 03:35 AM

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Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

Remember, you can't take the Bible out of context. You must see it for the whole that it is.

Bull, and you know it. The Bible is HORRENDOUSLY contextual, which is why parts contradict other parts and so on and so forth. Its original writers weren't thinking about folks 2000 years down the line, and so they didn't write explaining the ancient world they lived in, because their audience already LIVED in that world.

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I find it fascinating that people want me to disregard the old testimony because of the new as if it doesn't matter anymore. If the old doesn't bear relevance, why is it still printed? If it does bear relevance, I would point at your loving merciful god and show you that in the old testament, he was a tyrant who killed anyone that he pleased because they CHOSE something that disagreed with him. What good is free will if you are just going to be destroyed for it?

The Old Testament is still printed as it's still useful as a history of a people, as well as neato for its more reverent parts (like the Psalms, or the Song of Solomon. The Song is a GREAT read for those interested in love -- and not just Christian love).

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I'm not a scientist so I couldn't possibly hope to argue this with you. How is it that because science hasn't come up with ALL the answers yet that it is wrong? It hasn't come up with the ability to create life. Maybe in another 50 years? 100, 200? You're religion has had 2000 years. Science is really a relatively new "religion".

Christianity may have had 2000 years, yes, but its mythology goes back further than that. It was making life by day five.

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Quite honestly, I could care less about evolution because I don't think we can ever *know* how it all started. Everything is just a guess since nobody was there. Why worry about things you can't know. Look to the future.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
"Why worry about things you can't know.", followed IMMEDIATELY by "Look to the future."
That's CLASSIC. Man, talk about things you can't know...

wickerman · 07-29-2004, 07:29 AM

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I find it fascinating that people want me to disregard the old testimony because of the new as if it doesn't matter anymore.

Oh, they still use it. They just pick parts to use. The stoning thing is out the window and "smiting blasphemers" isn't necessary anymore but they'll latch on to one obscure verse in the middle to condemn homosexuals. Hypocrisy.

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Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your radio show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors bitch to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law ?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ....Why can't I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with tham due to the weather?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. I mean, a shrimp just isn't the same as a you-know-what. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I'm not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it's ok?

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan

Quote:

If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able then he is not omnipotent.
If he is able, but not willing then he is malevolent.
If he is both able and willing then where does evil come from?
If he is neither able nor willing then why call him God?

(paraphrased quote from Epicurus)

A very interesting read

Benny_ · 07-29-2004, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

again, my points are the following.:

as for penguins and evolution.... there was nothing gained from this. the feather changed and the wing withered. nothing grew to make this happen. this is not really "evolution" it is de-evolution. find a scientifically proven instance of an animal growing as a species a new organ or appendage for reasons of better suitability and we will discuss it. any "evolution" that changes existing features (a white butterfly instead of a brown one surviving in england is an example of change) or loosing a part (deep ocean fish loosing eyes because blind fish were just as likely to survive as sighted ones) is de-evolution and therefore not supportive of a human coming from seascum. I see no way that life just happened from nothing. and I see now way that an organism as complex as humans came from omeba. if it just happened one day that some chemicals came together and made life, then why can it not be recreated in a lab? everything in the bible has explaination in scientific terms except for life. a rainbow. lame walking, blind seeing, david slaying goliath, etc.. all have some way to reason them away or prove that it probably happened like this or that..... no scientist has made chemicals come to life. it seems that an accident would be easy to recreate in a lab with enough work. why has no one succeeded here? you would think evolutionists would want irrefutable proof that it is possible.

Evolution is survival of the fittest. The butterfly didn't magically change colour, sex muddys the gene pool, the genetic change that caused the butterfly to change colour wa further propogated, the ones that stayed 'pure' died off. This isn't a light switch thing, it's over thousands of years. Eventually all the old butterly family tree is gone and the gene pool has moved on.

As humans we now challenge that by keeping alive the people behind the edge, maintiaining the sick, looking after the people who are ill, so the genetic pool carries on, cancer is passed from generation to generation, whereas without intervention perhaps those people pre-disposed to cancer would have died out as the time passed. BUT again, sex would muddy that pool and a new 'cancer' would arrive.

I've not had a chance to read all the links so far, but scientists have created life from base elements and electricty.

I don't think that the argument is about religion now, I've probably made the wrong assumption that everyone accepts the big bang, but are now discussing who did that to start with. I'll hold my hands up and say I don't know, I don't believe in a higher power as is my choice. If anyone wants to believe then all power to them, it doesn't affect me. Maybe one day I'll have an epiphany and change my mind, but with what I see as facts right now telling me that science can explain most things, and well on the path to explaining a lot more, I find it difficult to bend my mind around the notion that I just don't understand. The 2 + 2 = 10 argument just doesn't make sense. Maybe I'm to logical for my own good.

(great thread by the way

)

**DudeMan** · 07-29-2004, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

A conflict that Christians seem to have reconciled, but you have not.

ha ha

thats an argument, sorry pokerface you are grabbing syraws now imo, if thats all you can say, well then theres nothing more to argue with you.

you have lost the urge to actually argue facts and you seem to want to call me ignorant rather than duscuss the issue.

Mot73 · 07-29-2004, 09:09 AM

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Originally Posted by fr1j0l3

Nah, you only have to worry about the OTHER "stealth insertions" by the priests.

Not painting ALL with one brush, let everyone beleive what the want to, just dont try to impose it on anyone else.

LOL....Its a danger to look at others as the benchmark of what christianity is or should be....sad to have to say that....but one must use the benchmarks that are stable...The Bible and God himself. Only then can you get a true picture. And I know the Bible has been translated over the years.....and I know there are descriptive stories and so forth that don't apply to todays culture...you have to look at the meanings....not read everything as literal.

Mankind is not flawless as we all know...don't expect "christians" to be either...basically, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Mot73 · 07-29-2004, 09:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

I submit that those 10 rules to live by existed in the societies prior to "god" printing them on a tablet. How did they come to be? Morality exists without a belief in god.

Maybe God created that moral guidepost within you? As human beings who having a free will, choose to reject God and that guidepost within them, God deemed it necessary to get it on "stone"

Just because He decided to put on in written form at a point in time doesn't mean its "pre" or exists without God.

This post is just "another" could it be type to be used as food for thought.

I submit that morality exists because of God. He is the author of the guidepost that is within each of us. I know you all won't believe it. and Thats ok

**CingularDuality** · 07-29-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

if it just happened one day that some chemicals came together and made life, then why can it not be recreated in a lab? everything in the bible has explaination in scientific terms except for life. a rainbow. lame walking, blind seeing, david slaying goliath, etc.. all have some way to reason them away or prove that it probably happened like this or that..... no scientist has made chemicals come to life. it seems that an accident would be easy to recreate in a lab with enough work. why has no one succeeded here? you would think evolutionists would want irrefutable proof that it is possible.

It has been done. Have you read this thread? There have been several posts about it...

Mot73 · 07-29-2004, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

Couple of things popped up reading this...

Ventura commented that "religion is a crutch" and I've said that before on my website. I think people use religion to get by and I'm scared for them when that religion fails them. I like my life and my strenght. I like that I, too, guide myself and rely on myself. When I fail, the fault comes to me. When I triump, it does as well. Don't anyone take offense though. If it see's you through... I'm glad religion was there for you. Whatever it takes to make it through life.

The other thing is... how many of you are in the first religion you ever looked into? Have you ever looked to see if another fit? Isn't it amazing how many people get the right religion on the first shot? I appreciate more my friend who searched for 25 years before he found Buddhism. He finally found something that felt right to him after trying on several other things. He didn't adopt someone else's religion.. He found the truth, from his view.

Personally, I've not advocated a "religion". What gets missed sometimes is that we get all hung up on the formalized religion which in most case if not all is also MAN created. For me...its about a "relationship" NOT a religion. If you follow a religion it WILL fail you!!!!!!!! We've talked about God alot in the thread and God and "religion" are NOT synonymous contrary to somes belief.

I found a denomination that I believe holds to the values that I believe God intends for us to have. When they stray from that, I will cease to support them. Ultimately, my relationship with God is whats important to me.

If that makes any sense.

Mot73 · 07-29-2004, 10:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

From your storybook,

That seems a little disrespectful. To the Christian, the Bible is more than a storybook.

We don't call much of our formalized educational text books storybooks. The bible is similiar. A book with stories yes..but much more.

Respectfully.

**CingularDuality** · 07-29-2004, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

as for penguins and evolution.... there was nothing gained from this. the feather changed and the wing withered. nothing grew to make this happen. this is not really "evolution" it is de-evolution. find a scientifically proven instance of an animal growing as a species a new organ or appendage for reasons of better suitability and we will discuss it. any "evolution" that changes existing features (a white butterfly instead of a brown one surviving in england is an example of change) or loosing a part (deep ocean fish loosing eyes because blind fish were just as likely to survive as sighted ones) is de-evolution and therefore not supportive of a human coming from seascum.

Have you studied any Darwin at all? What about the iguanas of Ecuador? Evolution is pretty much inarguable at this point. If you want to argue about whether humans evolved from a lesser primate, well, there's still a lot of controversy regarding that, but I think it's just a matter of finding the right archeological evidence before we figure out exactly which species we evolved from... And we didn't evolve from any species that is currently living. Some stupid people believe what their preachers tell them: that science is trying to say we evolved from chimps or gorillas. This is not the case. At some point, we evolved from a species that the chimpanzee also evolved from. Two seperate beneficial mutations that took different paths towards promoting species survival.

**CingularDuality** · 07-29-2004, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Mot73+

I found a denomination that I believe holds to the values that I believe God intends for us to have. When they stray from that, I will cease to support them. Ultimately, my relationship with God is whats important to me.

If that makes any sense.

That makes a lot of sense. But most christians that I've talked to don't feel that way.

Mot73 · 07-29-2004, 11:35 AM

But why is it more ludicrous to some to believe we are created by a superior being..a deity than it is to believe we evolved from a "unknown" species of some sort we have yet to identify?

There's no more or less logic either way it seems.

Mot73 · 07-29-2004, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

That makes a lot of sense. But most christians that I've talked to don't feel that way.

Again, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

07-29-2004, 11:35 AM	#179 (permalink)
Mot73 Join Date: May 2003 Location: DuBois, PA Age: 43 Posts: 586	Re: Evolution vs Creationism But why is it more ludicrous to some to believe we are created by a superior being..a deity than it is to believe we evolved from a "unknown" species of some sort we have yet to identify? There's no more or less logic either way it seems.

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