Fait_Maker

And you will never get it... We aren't tossing the baby out with the bathwater. We are observing people behave who are suppose to be worshipping and doing the bidding of this god thing. We don't like what we see with those people and so therefore we make a determination that this god thing must not be a good thing. If GOD was so good, we wouldn't be having wars over him.. everyone would be at peace... Oh wait... that's right... only one of you are right.. the others are worshipping false gods... now it's up to us folk to determine who is actually worshipping the right god... On second thought, I'll just not bother and enjoy my life instead....

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leejo

God IS good and we have wars because we're not perfect - far from it. 2-yr olds argue over who gets to play with the tinker toys. Are their parents terrible or negligent?

You seem to fault God for not creating a perfect world full of perfect people doing perfect things. Though I'm on the cusp of this, I'm looking forward to watching a small child grow into a complete person. I imagine that God feels sorrow for our pain and mistakes, joy for our progress and accomplishments, and patience with us all the while.

In any case, people who believe are just as smart, just as educated, have thought through all the issues you raise, are motivated by good things, and have reached a different conclusion than you have.

As far as "getting it" goes, I've gotten it, lost it, gotten it again, lost it again, and have it right now. It's not linear. One thing about God - once you admit in your heart and soul (NOT your brain) that He exists, you must also admit that His plans, actions, and thoughts are by definition WAY outside your league. Don't presume to 2nd guess or beg to differ: Do.

As you say, enjoy life. Take a deep breath. Relax. A good plan no matter what you believe.

phyllis

Fait....You married ?

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Fait_Maker

Yes... I am

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Fait_Maker

See.. that's the part you aren't getting.. I'm not faulting god.. I'm faulting a set of beliefs... as I've said before.. if I watch believers as a group and I don't agree with what they do or who they are as people.. why would I want to be a believer too.. Until you can put yourself into that mode, you will never have a clue what I'm talking about. *I* don't believe in god.. so how could I possibly look to him? I only have YOU to watch.

Obviously somehow believers are different though, because they can believe.

Maybe it's because you believe you can't understand what I'm trying to say. I really can't explain it any better. The people, who believe in god, are my only benchmark for a belief system. If you don't like that for an answer, I really don't see how that's relevant to me.

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CingularDuality

That's something that always amused me.... The fact that a devout Jehovah's Witness, devout Catholic and devout Baptist can all look at each other and sincerely believe that the other two are going to hell for worshipping the wrong way...

Even though they're all christian...

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Wolfie

But why does God perform "miracles" on people and heal them when science says it is impossible yet allow people to kill hundreds/thousands/millions of people? How can a good God allow a madman to come to power in Europe and plunge the world into a war that kills millions and millions of people, yet find the time to remove the cancer tumors in some hick living in rural Kansas?

TheFeniX

Every? No, just those that have no respect for others. Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Wiccans, and countless other religions have no problems respecting others beliefs.

I didn't toss God out. I tossed out a book a fables I found conflicted with my own morals and beliefs. I tossed out a community that preaches tolerance and understanding, but rarely practices it.

Very poor analogy. The Pope speaks for Catholics everywhere. He's essentially one step below God and Jesus. He speaks with God's will. He's been a priest almost all his life and lived in the footsteps of God.

Clinton and Nixon are politicians. Enough said.

Negative. I fault the Christian God for creating an imperfect man, and then punishing him for it. I fault a God who gives his children everything, then takes it all away forever because of one screw up. I fault a God that would let his followers do such destestable things to his children because they see things a little different.

I don't fault my God for anything.

Yea, but education means squat when it comes to beliefs. Faith is putting aside everything you have read, been told, experienced and saying "I hold THIS to be true although I have never seen it.

Educated men claimed that we'd never walk on the moon, that allowing women to vote would destroy the American family, that blacks and white shouldn't breed because of "bad genes," and that holding another man in bondage was ok. "Educated" is a pretty loose term.

Besides, Christians have no problem telling me I'm wrong, why don't I have the luxury of telling them the same?

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CingularDuality

Who the hell are you to question the motives of the almighty?

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leejo

Funny you should mention men walking on the moon.

Buzz Aldrin, who DID walk on the moon, after earning his doctorate in aeronautics from MIT, etc., took communion on the moon, his faith was so important to him. Pretty cool.

This guy is my parent's next-door neighbor, and I happen to know that he makes it to church.

Read on about the astronauts and you'll find a lot of pretty religious guys in the mix.

It would help your position if we were all stupid racist slave-holders, but I don't believe Christianity corners the market on those attributes. You guys insist on presenting a caricature of Christianity.

Look, if being wiccan or whatever floats your boat, I won't try to convince you you're wrong. Do the same for me, hmm?

Mot73

I think I've said this before but..I'll do it again.

The God I believe in doesn't "take it all away" and damn someone to hell when they screw up. We all make mistakes and God allows us that through His grace He grants to us.

As I understand things, whats gonna buy you the ticket to the eternal damnation party in the lake of fire is rejection of God. Who determines what "rejection of God" is...well He does and I have a sense that each of us knows in our own hearts.

Acceptance of God may come in different forms and its impossible for any of us to determine if someone else has accepted God and will miss the fire party. No human truely knows the heart of another.

We as unsensible as it sounds, have to get beyond looking at the "bad" christian and saying I reject their God. Most likely they are a poor representative of God and He isn't pleased with them. Why can't we look to all the good and noble christians in the world that are doing good and living non judgemental lives in tolerance and acceptance of others. Are they going to share their God to try to get you to see and appreciated the God they serve...most likely..but that shouldn't condemn them as intolerant of all others and peg them as MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY types. I don't think thats a fair analogy. Don't get me wrong, some DO act that way but its not all.

TheFeniX

Your point being? An educated man who is also religious isn't exactly a new thing. Like I said much earlier, many scientists are religious people: they just don't take him to work.

Astronauts may have faith in God, but I doubt they rely on him as much as the men and women who designed all the equipment that got them there. Fath in God wont stop a shuttle from exploding from poor design.

I think you may be under the assumption that I hate all Christians. Not true, although I dislike that portion of their lives if they so choose to push it on me. My mom and I battle about Religion (her being Baptist), but it's not like we hate each other for it.

And Christians paint the same portrait of non-christians. Look how many times I've been labeled an Aethiest in this thread, even though I've specified at least twice I am not. Don't push double standards.

I'd actually like to get off this subject and get back to someone trying to prove Creationism is a science and not some poor attempt at Christians to push God back into the classroom.

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leejo

Oh nevermind.