Evolution vs Creationism - Page 4

**luna** · 07-27-2004, 10:09 PM

Hey Fait,

I feel compelled to reply to you, even though I have resisted contributing to this thread.

I was in your shoes for quite some time. I've been told similar things and it has caused an immense amount of anger on my part. I'll never forget my grandmother telling me that she pitied my son, because I wasn't raising him in the church. It hurts, and is a major catalyst for hostility.

Over time, my feelings of hostility have faded, though. I have come to understand (at this point, anyhow) that people are going to say things and react without thinking beforehand. I have also come to understand that while I feel everyone is entitled to think and feel whatever they want or need to in this regard, not everyone else is going to afford me that same courtesy.

It gets better. The anger for me has been replaced with tolerance and understanding, and an insatiable desire to understand how people think and what our place in this universe is. I've also come to the conclusion that I know very little in the whole scheme of things, and to boldly say one thing or another when I can only comprehend a tiny fraction of all there is to know is arrogant of me. I'm totally clueless. I enjoy absorbing everything I can, and do my best not to allow myself to believe that I know something that is at this point unknowable.

I feel where you're coming from because I'm from the same place. People will always disagree with your position just as you will disagree with theirs. It's human nature, as far as I can see.

**DudeMan** · 07-27-2004, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

Leejo, take a deep breath for me. Now hold it as I say something in the most respectful tone I can muster. For years I have been told to respect others beliefs and I do. I firmly believe in your right to believe what you want. For years, I have been labeled evil, immoral, blah blah blah because I simply do not believe in god. I've had people completely stop talking to me upon the knowledge that I'm Atheist. People I viewed as friends, co-workers... I've been told that I'll be prayered for like I have some sick disease. I've been belittled. I've had death threats sent to my home and my family. And yet I am told that I must be respectful.

Comparing a god <because I don't consider anything God or my god or anything else> to the easter bunny is simply a discription of what it is for us. We don't believe in what we consider your myth like you don't believe in the easter bunny. They are one in the same. I find it offensive that an Atheist cannot state his belief or describe the situation from his perspective without someone pulling the "your being disrespectful to my beliefs" card. I agree with Ender in that I consider it all a religious joke. If that bothers you, so be it. Tell me you'll pray for me or even better yet, tell me it's my god too whether I like it or not. I'll one up that even. Stop and think about how arrogant that all sounds to us when you stand in our shoes for a minute. It's not about anger, for me at least. Certainly I am angry but it's only because most do not hold themselves to the same standard they would of the Atheist.

I got it.. Tell me this is a Christian nation and if I don't like it.. leave.

You want to see hostility? Read my essay on Religious Bigotry. You'll really like the part where my Aunt says "GOD HELP YOU! How dare YOU use my email list for your selfish ideas. GO TO HELL."

my god, (oh the irony) i knew that the american society was highly religious in many parts but that news shocks me to my very core. i am athiest and have never ever been afraid to tell anyone that. i often enjoy talking to other christians or muslims for that mater, and between their attempts to convert the devil worshiper (as many christians i have spoken to seem to think i must be) we have quit rivitting conversations.

but in all my time on this earth, which granted isnt that long, i have never ever felt belittled to be an athiest. well apart from when brooklyn tries to tell me how empty and shallow i am because i dont have god.

that is a serious problem in my eyes, tolerence over religion is something one grows up with in England because we have such a multi cultural society.

quite shocked by this news.

**luna** · 07-27-2004, 10:14 PM

You're very very lucky, Dudeman. It isn't a fun position to be in.

**DudeMan** · 07-27-2004, 10:18 PM

Quote:

The anger for me has been replaced with tolerance and understanding, and an insatiable desire to understand how people think and what our place in this universe is.

luna do you really think that you should be the one to compramise and be tolerent.

i dont, i cant imagine allowing someone to speak to me like that, its disrespect which you have not deserved, as long as yyou dont go round saying oh jesus is fake blah blah your stupid, you deserve the same respect. and for you to be tolerent, whilst being a testiment to your strength and ability to bite your tongue it is no way fair and just.

**DudeMan** · 07-27-2004, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =luna=

You're very very lucky, Dudeman. It isn't a fun position to be in.

well London is made up of like 35% christians 35% muslim and whatever others, and even many of those who say they are christian say that for census readings because they were brought up christian.

tolerence of religion is part and parcel of being English, and i do think it is a very sad state of affairs for a western country to react to an athies in this way.

**Pokerface** · 07-27-2004, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

luna do you really think that you should be the one to compramise and be tolerent.

If someone doesn't exhibit tolerance, no one will.

**DudeMan** · 07-27-2004, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

If someone doesn't exhibit tolerance, no one will.

right so if we go back to racism, and you tell a black guy to be tolerent of the white man who makes him sit in the back of th bus, thats ok.

oh please, when a minority is picked on and exposed to such extreme behavior as fait has, they do not need to be tolerent, they need to enforce the issue so that people are tolerent to them.

that is backward logic if ever i heard it pokerface, to force the minority to be tolerent and put up with abuse.

**Pokerface** · 07-27-2004, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

i believe your answer is a classic personification of Karl Marxs' famous quote, "religion is the opium of the masses"

Not quite, Dudeman. To an extent, what I said was in line with Marx, but Marx's view was much more cynical. Marx's religion (that is to say, his view on it) told you that when your uncle died, he went someplace better because that's what you need to hear to make you feel better. I was aiming to be more of a pragmatist -- God fills the big holes no amount of data could ever do, like "Meaning of Life" stuff.

Quote:

just because we have questions we cant answer yet, does not mean they are being withheld by some supreme being, it is a possibility, but it is not the best of arguments to suggest that we should just accept that.

It's certainly not the best of arguments to deny the possibility for the same reason.

**DudeMan** · 07-27-2004, 10:39 PM

im sorry pokerface but its being pointlessly argumentative here, i did not say at all to deny the possibility for that reason, and paying attention to the thread you would know this.

further more, mark's religion, this one is new to me, wasnt he the socialist who said that there would soon be no need for religion. granted he was wrong so far, but he is right about one thing. he said that through the advances in society that religion would fade out. and that is certainly happeneing.

and again, the idea of men flying was the stuff dreams were made of, yet when the right bros achieved it, it was no longer dream.

just the same as the meaning of life, now while i cant see a solution to that problem yet, whos to say that there isnt one, and to just say oh well thats where go is, in those questions is nieve.

**Pokerface** · 07-27-2004, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

right so if we go back to racism, and you tell a black guy to be tolerent of the white man who makes him sit in the back of th bus, thats ok.

oh please, when a minority is picked on and exposed to such extreme behavior as fait has, they do not need to be tolerent, they need to enforce the issue so that people are tolerent to them.

that is backward logic if ever i heard it pokerface, to force the minority to be tolerent and put up with abuse.

I would like to refer you to Martin Luther King Jr. and Mohandas Gandhi.

It's not about putting up with abuse; it's about fostering understanding. Tolerance doesn't spring forth magically from intolerance.

**DudeMan** · 07-27-2004, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

I would like to refer you to Martin Luther King Jr. and Mohandas Gandhi.

It's not about putting up with abuse; it's about fostering understanding. Tolerance doesn't spring forth magically from intolerance.

so you think martyn luther king was tolerating the abuse suffered by black people at the hands of white racists.

no quite the oposite, he was speaking against them, with threats to his life much the same as fait, (although sorry fait thats about all i can compare you with mr King

)

he did not tolerate it, whilst he did not advocate violence he did not tolerate it,

**leejo** · 07-27-2004, 11:21 PM

Oh pish. Nobody's oppressing you. You can have any job you want, you can sit anywhere on the bus you want. If I were a black man I'd be more than a little offended by your comparison. How many athiest friends of yours have been lynched, beaten, spat upon. Dudeman, while you're looking for brothers in arms, why not go hang out with some of the homosexuals you find so disgusting and have a chat about tolerance?

Who started this stupid thread anyway? Someone trying to preach or someone asking how anyone in his right mind could believe in God? You bring up the subject and then act like martyrs for having someone dare disagree with you. Go soak your head.

**phyllis** · 07-27-2004, 11:46 PM

Heh...after reading all this mess...it comes down to whether one believes the Bible is fact, or it's hogwash...

Just a few questions for you atheists/non-believer/evolutionists...

Evolutionists claim the solar system condensed out of a vast cloud of swirling dust about 4,600,000,000 billion years ago...if that's the case, and the Earth and solar system evolved from a swirling cloud of dust and gas... practically no water would be on Earth(or very little anyway)...how is it that 70% of the Earth's surface is covered in water ?

Spontaneous life (the arrival of life from nonliving anything) has never been observed....every study out therehas shown that life comes only from life....science can create life from other life, but have yet to create any type of living thing, even a single cell from anything non-living....

Every species appears fully, not partially developed. There are no examples of half-developed feathers, eyes, skin, tubes (arteries, veins, etc.), or any of thousands of other vital organs. Tubing that is not 100% complete is no good... neither are partially developed organs.....Think about this a minute.... if a leg of a reptile were to evolve into a wing of a bird... it would become a bad leg long before it became a good wing

Many single celled forms of life exist...no known forms of life have 2,3,4, or 5 cells...the forms of life that contain 6-20 cells are parasites.... if evolution has/is occuring...why are there no 2-3-4-5 cells forms of life filling that gap between single celled organisms and parasites ?

To claim life evolved is to demand a miracle...huh?...no way!...miracles are only for religious fools... it takes wayyyyy more faith to think this complex world just kinda fell together over the last few thousand years, than it does to believe that a divine creator put it all together.....

I leave you with this...and I'll step out before the flaming begins....

Do people accept evolution for the following reasons......

It is all they have been taught. (kinda like Christians eh ? )

They like the freedom from God (no moral absolutes, I'm responsible to no one etc.).

They are too proud to admit they are wrong.

**DudeMan** · 07-27-2004, 11:51 PM

again leejo finds away of putting his foot right in his mouth.

fact is leejo you dont pay attention, despite an entire discussion on the matter you still acuse me of being a homosexual hater, when i have made quite clear on several occaisions that i am not against homosexuals at all. only adoption.

so for that comment you have come across as completely ignorant. secondly i did not bring up martyn luther king, pokerface did, and therefroe the analogy really stems from something he said, so again, hush up about it if you dont read it. i loosly made a comment about tolerence, when fait says he got death threats i have no reason to disbelieve him.

thirdly, i have not once said i have been opressed, another symptom of you completly not reading the thread, i responded to the shocking revalations that fait and Luna have told me, but then again i would not expect you to see that because you clearly read my name and went on the offensive.

"You bring up the subject and then act like martyrs for having someone dare disagree with you. Go soak your head"

irreguardless of the pathetic smily you have put at the end of this its an insult, and again you are the first to throw them,. and every time you do this i am going to be pointing it out, you do this often leejo and never apologise then act like the innocent party when moderators come around.

sick and tired of that, and in light of the way this thread has actually gone the comment is about as useful as sweet rapper, pretty to look at but complete garbage.

**DudeMan** · 07-27-2004, 11:59 PM

Quote:

They are too proud to admit they are wrong.

i respected your post until you said this,

sorry but all you have yourself is a series of questions, which you rationalise to be gods will and the design of god. if others choose to rationalise different it is unfair to say that they are just so arrogant that they wont admit they are wrong.

niether of your other questions aplly to me niether, i am athies because i cant believe that god did it, i can believe that we dont have all the questions and sometimes i hope that i am wrong about god because it means there is a possibility of life after death.

but my convictions as far as god is concerned are not strong enough, thereforei explore other alternatives, i find too man contradictions in the bible that just show human error in the creation of the bible for me to believe its the will of god.

07-27-2004, 10:09 PM	#46 (permalink)
luna Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Age: 30 Posts: 4,136	Re: Evolution vs Creationism Hey Fait, I feel compelled to reply to you, even though I have resisted contributing to this thread. I was in your shoes for quite some time. I've been told similar things and it has caused an immense amount of anger on my part. I'll never forget my grandmother telling me that she pitied my son, because I wasn't raising him in the church. It hurts, and is a major catalyst for hostility. Over time, my feelings of hostility have faded, though. I have come to understand (at this point, anyhow) that people are going to say things and react without thinking beforehand. I have also come to understand that while I feel everyone is entitled to think and feel whatever they want or need to in this regard, not everyone else is going to afford me that same courtesy. It gets better. The anger for me has been replaced with tolerance and understanding, and an insatiable desire to understand how people think and what our place in this universe is. I've also come to the conclusion that I know very little in the whole scheme of things, and to boldly say one thing or another when I can only comprehend a tiny fraction of all there is to know is arrogant of me. I'm totally clueless. I enjoy absorbing everything I can, and do my best not to allow myself to believe that I know something that is at this point unknowable. I feel where you're coming from because I'm from the same place. People will always disagree with your position just as you will disagree with theirs. It's human nature, as far as I can see. __________________ Resurgent's New Motivational Motto: "Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!" Jesus had a soulstone.

07-27-2004, 10:14 PM	#48 (permalink)
luna Join Date: May 2003 Location: Rhode Island Age: 30 Posts: 4,136	Re: Evolution vs Creationism You're very very lucky, Dudeman. It isn't a fun position to be in. __________________ Resurgent's New Motivational Motto: "Now train harder! Live inside your character! If it dies, YOU DIE! Focus!" Jesus had a soulstone.

07-27-2004, 10:39 PM	#54 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: Evolution vs Creationism im sorry pokerface but its being pointlessly argumentative here, i did not say at all to deny the possibility for that reason, and paying attention to the thread you would know this. further more, mark's religion, this one is new to me, wasnt he the socialist who said that there would soon be no need for religion. granted he was wrong so far, but he is right about one thing. he said that through the advances in society that religion would fade out. and that is certainly happeneing. and again, the idea of men flying was the stuff dreams were made of, yet when the right bros achieved it, it was no longer dream. just the same as the meaning of life, now while i cant see a solution to that problem yet, whos to say that there isnt one, and to just say oh well thats where go is, in those questions is nieve. __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

07-27-2004, 11:21 PM	#57 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Evolution vs Creationism Oh pish. Nobody's oppressing you. You can have any job you want, you can sit anywhere on the bus you want. If I were a black man I'd be more than a little offended by your comparison. How many athiest friends of yours have been lynched, beaten, spat upon. Dudeman, while you're looking for brothers in arms, why not go hang out with some of the homosexuals you find so disgusting and have a chat about tolerance? Who started this stupid thread anyway? Someone trying to preach or someone asking how anyone in his right mind could believe in God? You bring up the subject and then act like martyrs for having someone dare disagree with you. Go soak your head. Last edited by leejo; 07-27-2004 at 11:36 PM.

07-27-2004, 11:46 PM	#58 (permalink)
phyllis Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dayton Ohio Age: 40 Posts: 1,502	Re: Evolution vs Creationism Heh...after reading all this mess...it comes down to whether one believes the Bible is fact, or it's hogwash... Just a few questions for you atheists/non-believer/evolutionists... Evolutionists claim the solar system condensed out of a vast cloud of swirling dust about 4,600,000,000 billion years ago...if that's the case, and the Earth and solar system evolved from a swirling cloud of dust and gas... practically no water would be on Earth(or very little anyway)...how is it that 70% of the Earth's surface is covered in water ? Spontaneous life (the arrival of life from nonliving anything) has never been observed....every study out therehas shown that life comes only from life....science can create life from other life, but have yet to create any type of living thing, even a single cell from anything non-living.... Every species appears fully, not partially developed. There are no examples of half-developed feathers, eyes, skin, tubes (arteries, veins, etc.), or any of thousands of other vital organs. Tubing that is not 100% complete is no good... neither are partially developed organs.....Think about this a minute.... if a leg of a reptile were to evolve into a wing of a bird... it would become a bad leg long before it became a good wing Many single celled forms of life exist...no known forms of life have 2,3,4, or 5 cells...the forms of life that contain 6-20 cells are parasites.... if evolution has/is occuring...why are there no 2-3-4-5 cells forms of life filling that gap between single celled organisms and parasites ? To claim life evolved is to demand a miracle...huh?...no way!...miracles are only for religious fools... it takes wayyyyy more faith to think this complex world just kinda fell together over the last few thousand years, than it does to believe that a divine creator put it all together..... I leave you with this...and I'll step out before the flaming begins.... Do people accept evolution for the following reasons...... It is all they have been taught. (kinda like Christians eh ? ) They like the freedom from God (no moral absolutes, I'm responsible to no one etc.). They are too proud to admit they are wrong. __________________

07-27-2004, 11:51 PM	#59 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: Evolution vs Creationism again leejo finds away of putting his foot right in his mouth. fact is leejo you dont pay attention, despite an entire discussion on the matter you still acuse me of being a homosexual hater, when i have made quite clear on several occaisions that i am not against homosexuals at all. only adoption. so for that comment you have come across as completely ignorant. secondly i did not bring up martyn luther king, pokerface did, and therefroe the analogy really stems from something he said, so again, hush up about it if you dont read it. i loosly made a comment about tolerence, when fait says he got death threats i have no reason to disbelieve him. thirdly, i have not once said i have been opressed, another symptom of you completly not reading the thread, i responded to the shocking revalations that fait and Luna have told me, but then again i would not expect you to see that because you clearly read my name and went on the offensive. "You bring up the subject and then act like martyrs for having someone dare disagree with you. Go soak your head" irreguardless of the pathetic smily you have put at the end of this its an insult, and again you are the first to throw them,. and every time you do this i am going to be pointing it out, you do this often leejo and never apologise then act like the innocent party when moderators come around. sick and tired of that, and in light of the way this thread has actually gone the comment is about as useful as sweet rapper, pretty to look at but complete garbage. __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

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