Evolution vs Creationism - Page 6

**Wyzcrak** · 07-28-2004, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

If God is omnipotent, can He make a mountain so immense that even He can't move it?

Maybe I misunderstood the URL below, but it would seem that the answer is yes, but that our inability to perceive his moving it is due to a limitation He imposed on our universe (which our understanding of movement is bound to) during Creation and does not compromise His omnipotence as we understand it. He is powerful enough to create the mountain. He is powerful enough to move the mountain. We are not able to know or perceive the movement.

http://www.errantskeptics.org/Omnipotence.htm

I liked the comparison to a demand that He create circles with four sides of equal length.

That's interesting stuff regardless of what you believe, I guess.

**CingularDuality** · 07-28-2004, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

http://www.errantskeptics.org/Omnipotence.htm

I liked the comparison to a demand that He create circles with four sides of equal length.

That's interesting stuff regardless of what you believe, I guess.

There's some absolutely horrific examples of "logic" used in that essay, but the gist of his argument makes sense to me. At the same time, the "limitation of the nature of our universe" argument is different from the "circle with four sides" argument because it isn't, by definition, contradictory. It also proves the impossibility of true omnipotence.

Very interesting, though. I'm gonna read through some more of that site as well...

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Dudeman you're correct I had it in my mind that you had made many comments about homosexuality being "unnatural" and inferred things you did not say. I apologize.

You did however just liken being "picked on" as a minority (athiest) to riding on the back of the bus as a black person, did you not? So you brought up that issue, not me.

And yes, I was being sarcastic with the go soak your head, but I wasn't directing it at you. Dudeman, you take so many things personally when I believe the writer didn't have you on their minds at all, as in this case. Other than the crack about tolerating homosexuals, I wasn't thinking of you at all.

ok if you say so,

but what about the black man sitting on the bus, is this not a piece of behavior that couls so easily be tolerated, i did not mention being lynched by the kkk or spat at,

and you say how dare i liken it to the race issue, well i say quite damn easily considering some have expressed how they recieved death threats. ok it isnt as bad and probably will never be as bad, but does that somehow change the logic.

no it does not, it still means that the burden of tolerence must go with the majority, the minority is not in a position to tolerate anything, because if they do they put up with abuse.

and well leejo if you post about someone, then watch what you say, im not a mind reader, and if you direct a comment at me then go on to say how arrogant (nobody is aparantly) someone is then you have to assume that the person will take it personally.

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fait_Maker

Evolution describes how life on earth evolved and makes no claims on how the universe or anything in space came to be.

The dust and gas contained the molecules necessary to combine and make water? I wasn't there, so I really don't know. You don't either.

Question. If the Earth was made for man and contains 70% water, why weren't we created with gills?

I don't know. I wasn't there. You don't know either.

Question - if the universe needs a creator why doesn't that rule apply to god as well? Who created god?

How do you know this to be true? Have you observed evolution to conclude that it must be a bad leg? Why don't penguins have feathers, being birds?

They were allergic to those numbers? Is there a rule that those cells had to form?

Faith is allowing yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject -- otherwise there's no need for faith.

millions.. millions of years.

Evolution is proved to be happening this very day, but I don't personally accept that it is the reason there is life here. Maybe aliens made this for us. I don't know. I wasn't here. You don't know either.

I do not feel that a theist can be moral based upon their religious belief. The theist has said that he/she cannot make rational decisions about what is right or wrong and has turned over that right to a god to make those decisions for him/her. You can read more in my essay on morals

<sigh>

i agree with this answer, i was going to say that all phyllis has is a bunch of doubled sworded questions which even the religious boys have no real proof of, but could not word it quite the way i wanted too.

**Pokerface** · 07-28-2004, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

There's some absolutely horrific examples of "logic" used in that essay, but the gist of his argument makes sense to me. At the same time, the "limitation of the nature of our universe" argument is different from the "circle with four sides" argument because it isn't, by definition, contradictory. It also proves the impossibility of true omnipotence.

Very interesting, though. I'm gonna read through some more of that site as well...

I don't think so. Perhaps true omnipotence on this temporal plane, yes, but we're talkin' 'bout DA LAWD here.

The point that the essay should really drive home is that God doesn't play by our rules, even though he made them. To impose physical limitations on a being with no body is silly.

wickerman · 07-28-2004, 12:02 PM

Quote:

The point that the essay should really drive home is that God doesn't play by our rules, even though he made them. To impose physical limitations on a being with no body is silly.

Therein lies the problem with religious debate:

If you believe, that statement is pure fact to you and you can't imagine it any other way.
If you don't believe that statement is pure hogwash and is just a "cop out" to avoid attempting a real explanation.

What would ordinarily be a weak justification is made rock solid by those with "faith".

Note, I'm not attacking here, just trying to point out why the argument is ultimately futile. It all comes down to personal choice of belief or non-belief.

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wickerman

Therein lies the problem with religious debate:

If you believe, that statement is pure fact to you and you can't imagine it any other way.
If you don't believe that statement is pure hogwash and is just a "cop out" to avoid attempting a real explanation.

What would ordinarily be a weak justification is made rock solid by those with "faith".

Note, I'm not attacking here, just trying to point out why the argument is ultimately futile. It all comes down to personal choice of belief or non-belief.

PRECISELY THE FACT THAT YOU NEED HUGE AMOUNTS OF FAITH EVEN WHEN SOMETIMES YOUR OWN LOGIC TELLS YOU OTHERWISE TO BE RELIGIOUS IS WHY I AM NOT RELIGIOUS

to me its like a wish at your birthday, you wish for something that is almost certain not to come true like winning the lotto, but nobody will ever find out of ot does come true because you cant tell nobody oterwise it will not come true.

its almost like god is that wish, you have to believe he is there even though you never really get any proof that god is there.

not that i know for sure i am correct, as i have said sometimes i hope there is a god, and some more meaning to life beyond death, but because i cant justify the blind faith needed to believe in god, i have to say for the sake of not being hypocritical that i am athiest, and i think this is the position of a few people out there too.

no reason for caps other than caps lock was on

Mot73 · 07-28-2004, 12:45 PM

It is about faith.

It seems we're attempting to prove our intellects here...when frankly, most of us are regurgitating things we've learned by means of some sort of human involvement.

The bible being the inspired word of God himself was written by human beings just like you and me.

Science, well....as much as we want to say its true and proven or corrects itself to be true in light of new discoveries (this time..for now..until new information is discovered) just proves that its not trustworthy at all.

Basically, does it all not have to boil down to faith? Faith being a believing in something that one has not personally seen.

The difference is that for the Christian, "true believer" in God, you take that faith (which is ultimatly all any of us has) and enter a relationship with the God of the universe. That quantum leap and recognition that there is really no hope for you in a life beyond this one and for some in this life, apart from God, begins to change you. Without the leap, there is no understanding. Its foolishness.

Its not about a book, its not about a theology, its not about a denomination, its not about someone elses beliefs, its about each persons own personal relationship with God himself. The true christian will describe the relationship to be as real as yours is with aunt Martha. Its then that the "faith" begins to become real and the relationship living and vital to life itself.

I couldn't post a conversation I had with God. Can't email a digital of the time He carried me thru this situation or that. Its just real. No amount of scientific proof or evidence could tell me otherwise.

Relationship with God is the only thing I know of with eternal consequences. While I don't advocate a "fire insurance" approach, even science would advocate exploring all options and an understanding that without due diligence...all is at risk.

If there is no God, I've lost nothing. I don't sit here regretting the path I'm on for the sake of a God. Life is good as it is. I will have NO regrets when my time on this earth passes.

Respectfully
Mot

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 12:56 PM

i readin inot your thread a few things mot, you talk about faith in science and where i agree to a degree you have to have faith in your findings and methods, i dont agree that the faith is as blind as that of God.

i dont know if you meant it but you baisically called all those who do not believe in god foolish, and while you may feel this its insulting and could be done without thanks. but i am not sure if you meant it that way.

and at the end you talk about regrets when your time is up, this is one of my biggest beefs with god. if you dont worship him you will be punished, its funny but that sounds really opressive to me. i live a good life, i dont steal and i am a very moral person. now when i die if there is a god, because i did not pray to him i am punished? and you feel that believing in god means you will not regret. that is beliefe because of fear.

i will not do something for the fear of being punished, many athiest people live their life in a very moral way, a common misconception is that because they have no god for guidence then they must be evil and miguided. in reality that is not true, where christians live by the will of god, an athiest lives by their morals.

i just disagree fundamentally with believing in god for fea of going to hell, if it truely makes sense to believe and you truely believe then do. other than that the incredible vengence of god is a farse to me.

wickerman · 07-28-2004, 01:35 PM

(I'm really not intending to pick on you, your post simply brings points to mind that I feel compelled to post.)

Quote:

The bible being the inspired word of God himself

... because it says so in the bible? That is circular reasoning and is tragically flawed.

The rest of the stuff about faith and relationships, to me, simply means convincing yourself of something and then blindly believing in it and attributing every good thing that happens to it in spite of the lack of tangible proof (proof outside that which is derived from the choice to believe a certain way). I am simply not capable of doing that, it doesn't work for me. If you are, and that makes you happy in life, then more power to you.

Religions (ALL religions) are more like diseases and I fear they do more to divide humanity than to unite it (unless of course we all prescribe to the same theology - an almost certain impossibility). Each one has a book/history claiming to authenticate it. Each group of followers fervently believes they are right and all others are wrong. None of them offer anything in the way of real proof (proofs derived through "faith" are not proofs because the only way they prove anything is if you have the same "faith" already or convert to it). IF the followers could leave other people alone and simply believe what they believe and derive happiness from it I wouldn't see any harm in it. Unfortunately, the organization/instituion of religion can only succeed if the numbers continue to grow and that only happens through assimilation. I draw DIRECT parallels between organizd religion and "the Borg" of Star Trek TNG. They are eerily the same, in my estimation.

Mot73 · 07-28-2004, 01:45 PM

Hope this doesn't come across wrong again, I guess I don't express myself very well.

If there was no consequence for disbelief or rejection of God or sins committed against said God, then why would God have sent His Son to die to pay the penalty for sin? Thats a fundamental belief in the Christian religion. Just like before Jesus, there was a sacrifice given at the temples for the sins committed. Even pagans "sacrifice" to apease their gods. If one doesn't believe in a god at all...then its all meaningless of course.

If you subscribe to christianity, there is a penalty...like it or not..otherwise whats the point. Now that I believe in and have made the committment to God, there is no fear. Fear is these days I think considered a bad thing by some or a sign of weakness. I prefer to think of it as a positive stimulis in most cases.

Regarding my intentional or untentional reference to others not holding to my beliefs as foolish, that was unintended although I guess when one holds a belief sincerely and there are consequences involved and others don't agree or understand it as you do, there is a feeling that others are being foolish....not in a disrepectful way..if that makes any sense. Just a kinda "I wish they felt like I felt..for their own good" kinda way. And please understand that comes from a caring perspective, not a flaming you stooopid idiot, I'm smarter than you, you will burn in hell for eternity kinda way

I respect others decisions, may not like them..but respect them. I guess as with most things, time will tell.

Again, outside of ones willingness to and desire to enter into the God relationship, its hard to convince if not impossible.

I hope that I've not damage the view of christianity in my responses in this thread.

Respectfully,
Mot

Mot73 · 07-28-2004, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wickerman

(I'm really not intending to pick on you, your post simply brings points to mind that I feel compelled to post.)

... because it says so in the bible? That is circular reasoning and is tragically flawed.

The rest of the stuff about faith and relationships, to me, simply means convincing yourself of something and then blindly believing in it and attributing every good thing that happens to it in spite of the lack of tangible proof (proof outside that which is derived from the choice to believe a certain way). I am simply not capable of doing that, it doesn't work for me. If you are, and that makes you happy in life, then more power to you.

Thats your opinion of how you see it affecting me...certainly not my view. You say blindly believing...again...your opinion not mine. I didn't say "EVERY" good thing is a result of my believing in a God. Don't put words in my mouth or twist what I say please.

I also don't understand the proof issue as tho the rest of what we all choose to believe must have this "proof" you are referring to. As an example.....

Who says that 2 plus 2 = 4? Maybe it equals 6 or 9 or 1 1/2? someone somewhere decided that a single thing is 1 and 2 single things are 2 therefore 4 single things are 4....maybe its not....and someday we'll thru some new enlightenment discover the real answer is 18?

We believe proof because we subscride to some methodology established by someone somewhere along the line. Yet some seem to think that this proof is more substantial than that other so called proof. again as I stated earlier....we MUST choose to believe in something.....and if we choose to call something "proof" its because we subscribe to it thru some learned experience. We ONLY know thru what someone else has told or or what we've experienced. Hardly fool proof as we are vastly limited in our comprehension.

I don't see the christian belief system much different I guess and yet some see it as soooo unproven and other things convincingly proven. Just kinda baffles me I guess.

That may have made no sense on paper...its hard to express what I'm thinking I guess.

IceCold · 07-28-2004, 02:07 PM

Side note: I just heard on the radio that a study was published showing that nations whose citizens believe in a devil are more successful than nations whose people do not. This is attributed to people not wanting to go to hell, and therefore being less corrupt. I couldn't find a link to it though...

IceCold · 07-28-2004, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wickerman

Religions (ALL religions) are more like diseases and I fear they do more to divide humanity than to unite it (unless of course we all prescribe to the same theology - an almost certain impossibility). Each one has a book/history claiming to authenticate it. Each group of followers fervently believes they are right and all others are wrong. None of them offer anything in the way of real proof (proofs derived through "faith" are not proofs because the only way they prove anything is if you have the same "faith" already or convert to it). IF the followers could leave other people alone and simply believe what they believe and derive happiness from it I wouldn't see any harm in it. Unfortunately, the organization/instituion of religion can only succeed if the numbers continue to grow and that only happens through assimilation. I draw DIRECT parallels between organizd religion and "the Borg" of Star Trek TNG. They are eerily the same, in my estimation.

Well, with the exception of you painting "ALL religions" with this brush, I would agree with you. Most religions are as you describe. But there are some religions (especially Eastern religions) that you simply can't categorize in this manner.

IceCold · 07-28-2004, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Mot73+

We believe proof because we subscride to some methodology established by someone somewhere along the line. Yet some seem to think that this proof is more substantial than that other so called proof. again as I stated earlier....we MUST choose to believe in something.....and if we choose to call something "proof" its because we subscribe to it thru some learned experience. We ONLY know thru what someone else has told or or what we've experienced. Hardly fool proof as we are vastly limited in our comprehension.

I don't see the christian belief system much different I guess and yet some see it as soooo unproven and other things convincingly proven. Just kinda baffles me I guess.

That may have made no sense on paper...its hard to express what I'm thinking I guess.

I understand the concept you are describing, but you have to understand that science provides evidence. Tangible data that we can see, feel, hear, measure and otherwise quantify... Faith, by definition, doesn't do this.

I think that your point is that most of us can't know that the world is round. Sure we see the horizon and we've flown or sailed to various places in the world, but none of us has seen actual proof that our world is a sphere. Photos can be faked, and none of us has flown into space. And even if we had flown into space, how could we really be sure that the window we're looking out of is actually a window and not an animated computer screen? But we have all seen evidence for ourselves that lends credence to the fact. The evidence seen for ourselves, combined with the second and third hand information, provides us with enough "proof" that we're all comfortable with accepting the fact that the Earth is round.

What tangible evidence has been provided that there is a higher power?

07-28-2004, 12:45 PM	#83 (permalink)
Mot73 Join Date: May 2003 Location: DuBois, PA Age: 43 Posts: 586	Re: Evolution vs Creationism It is about faith. It seems we're attempting to prove our intellects here...when frankly, most of us are regurgitating things we've learned by means of some sort of human involvement. The bible being the inspired word of God himself was written by human beings just like you and me. Science, well....as much as we want to say its true and proven or corrects itself to be true in light of new discoveries (this time..for now..until new information is discovered) just proves that its not trustworthy at all. Basically, does it all not have to boil down to faith? Faith being a believing in something that one has not personally seen. The difference is that for the Christian, "true believer" in God, you take that faith (which is ultimatly all any of us has) and enter a relationship with the God of the universe. That quantum leap and recognition that there is really no hope for you in a life beyond this one and for some in this life, apart from God, begins to change you. Without the leap, there is no understanding. Its foolishness. Its not about a book, its not about a theology, its not about a denomination, its not about someone elses beliefs, its about each persons own personal relationship with God himself. The true christian will describe the relationship to be as real as yours is with aunt Martha. Its then that the "faith" begins to become real and the relationship living and vital to life itself. I couldn't post a conversation I had with God. Can't email a digital of the time He carried me thru this situation or that. Its just real. No amount of scientific proof or evidence could tell me otherwise. Relationship with God is the only thing I know of with eternal consequences. While I don't advocate a "fire insurance" approach, even science would advocate exploring all options and an understanding that without due diligence...all is at risk. If there is no God, I've lost nothing. I don't sit here regretting the path I'm on for the sake of a God. Life is good as it is. I will have NO regrets when my time on this earth passes. Respectfully Mot

07-28-2004, 12:56 PM	#84 (permalink)
DudeMan Join Date: May 2003 Location: london England Age: 22 Posts: 3,258	Re: Evolution vs Creationism i readin inot your thread a few things mot, you talk about faith in science and where i agree to a degree you have to have faith in your findings and methods, i dont agree that the faith is as blind as that of God. i dont know if you meant it but you baisically called all those who do not believe in god foolish, and while you may feel this its insulting and could be done without thanks. but i am not sure if you meant it that way. and at the end you talk about regrets when your time is up, this is one of my biggest beefs with god. if you dont worship him you will be punished, its funny but that sounds really opressive to me. i live a good life, i dont steal and i am a very moral person. now when i die if there is a god, because i did not pray to him i am punished? and you feel that believing in god means you will not regret. that is beliefe because of fear. i will not do something for the fear of being punished, many athiest people live their life in a very moral way, a common misconception is that because they have no god for guidence then they must be evil and miguided. in reality that is not true, where christians live by the will of god, an athiest lives by their morals. i just disagree fundamentally with believing in god for fea of going to hell, if it truely makes sense to believe and you truely believe then do. other than that the incredible vengence of god is a farse to me. __________________ The Queen "Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life," *Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community* TheFeniX "Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

07-28-2004, 01:45 PM	#86 (permalink)
Mot73 Join Date: May 2003 Location: DuBois, PA Age: 43 Posts: 586	Re: Evolution vs Creationism Hope this doesn't come across wrong again, I guess I don't express myself very well. If there was no consequence for disbelief or rejection of God or sins committed against said God, then why would God have sent His Son to die to pay the penalty for sin? Thats a fundamental belief in the Christian religion. Just like before Jesus, there was a sacrifice given at the temples for the sins committed. Even pagans "sacrifice" to apease their gods. If one doesn't believe in a god at all...then its all meaningless of course. If you subscribe to christianity, there is a penalty...like it or not..otherwise whats the point. Now that I believe in and have made the committment to God, there is no fear. Fear is these days I think considered a bad thing by some or a sign of weakness. I prefer to think of it as a positive stimulis in most cases. Regarding my intentional or untentional reference to others not holding to my beliefs as foolish, that was unintended although I guess when one holds a belief sincerely and there are consequences involved and others don't agree or understand it as you do, there is a feeling that others are being foolish....not in a disrepectful way..if that makes any sense. Just a kinda "I wish they felt like I felt..for their own good" kinda way. And please understand that comes from a caring perspective, not a flaming you stooopid idiot, I'm smarter than you, you will burn in hell for eternity kinda way I respect others decisions, may not like them..but respect them. I guess as with most things, time will tell. Again, outside of ones willingness to and desire to enter into the God relationship, its hard to convince if not impossible. I hope that I've not damage the view of christianity in my responses in this thread. Respectfully, Mot

07-28-2004, 02:07 PM	#88 (permalink)
IceCold Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 716	Re: Evolution vs Creationism Side note: I just heard on the radio that a study was published showing that nations whose citizens believe in a devil are more successful than nations whose people do not. This is attributed to people not wanting to go to hell, and therefore being less corrupt. I couldn't find a link to it though...

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