Evolution vs Creationism - Page 7

wickerman · 07-28-2004, 02:28 PM

I really wasn't intending to attribute what I was posting to you, it's more of how it was portrayed to me, how I felt, when I went through what I call my religious "phase". Really didn't intend to appear as though I was putting words in your mouth.

wickerman · 07-28-2004, 02:32 PM

I guess saying "ALL" was a bit presumptive on my part - "Many" or "Most" would have been a better word.

**Pokerface** · 07-28-2004, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeMan

i dont know if you meant it but you baisically called all those who do not believe in god foolish, and while you may feel this its insulting and could be done without thanks. but i am not sure if you meant it that way.

I think Mot73 was more getting at the absurdity of a life without a purpose greater than yourself. Belief in a god, or even a higher order, is one way to get at that.

Quote:

and at the end you talk about regrets when your time is up, this is one of my biggest beefs with god. if you dont worship him you will be punished, its funny but that sounds really opressive to me. i live a good life, i dont steal and i am a very moral person. now when i die if there is a god, because i did not pray to him i am punished? and you feel that believing in god means you will not regret. that is beliefe because of fear.

Christians aren't Christians because they're afraid of Hell, and Mot73 didn't say that his belief relieves him of regret, merely that he does not regret the life he has lived believing in God.

Quote:

i will not do something for the fear of being punished, many athiest people live their life in a very moral way, a common misconception is that because they have no god for guidence then they must be evil and miguided. in reality that is not true, where christians live by the will of god, an athiest lives by their morals.

Common misconception? Wha?
I'll grant this much: in the absence of a higher purpose, an atheist stands a better chance of being misguided, if only by virtue of the fact that they are UNguided.

**leejo** · 07-28-2004, 02:40 PM

Attempting to use logic to "prove" God's existance is like using a spatula to mow the lawn. It's the wrong tool for the job.

One's relationship with God is a visceral thing: one either feels it (or recognize the feeling for what it is) or one doesn't. I can't logically prove that I love my wife, much less that she loves me, if you insist that we don't and demand a logical proof.

I do know that when I pray and live my life with an effort to keep God close in my heart, I am happier (though I can't prove it). The converse is true - the most miserable times in my life have been those times when I felt furthest from God.

Do whatever you like. Believe in God, don't believe in God. Understand though that many people smarter than you or me believe, or don't believe. I don't think it's particularly clever to come down on either side.

**Pokerface** · 07-28-2004, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceCold

What tangible evidence has been provided that there is a higher power?

The smiles of my daughters.
The colors of the sky at sunset.
That feeling I got the moment I first saw my wife.
Light reflecting off a gently rolling river.
The joy I have when I get a stupid piece of SQL to finally work like I want it to.

The list goes on, really.

Mot73 · 07-28-2004, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceCold

I understand the concept you are describing, but you have to understand that science provides evidence. Tangible data that we can see, feel, hear, measure and otherwise quantify... Faith, by definition, doesn't do this.

I think that your point is that most of us can't know that the world is round. Sure we see the horizon and we've flown or sailed to various places in the world, but none of us has seen actual proof that our world is a sphere. Photos can be faked, and none of us has flown into space. And even if we had flown into space, how could we really be sure that the window we're looking out of is actually a window and not an animated computer screen? But we have all seen evidence for ourselves that lends credence to the fact. The evidence seen for ourselves, combined with the second and third hand information, provides us with enough "proof" that we're all comfortable with accepting the fact that the Earth is round.

What tangible evidence has been provided that there is a higher power?

What tangible evidence is that there isn't? seems like we've come full circle.

There is NO proof as to how the beginning of life or this world came into existance. However, the concept of a "higher being" seems to have been a part of our makeup. This isn't proof but why do we even consider the thought that there may be a God? We have this inate sense that there is something greater than ourselves. The most illiterate of cultures almost all "worship" something...realizing that they are a smaller part of something or someone greater. They may worship the tree or may worship the creator of the tree..but they realize that they of themselves cannot "make" a tree. They cannot make a life in and of themselves.

We are a dependent race.....thriving from the existance of others in our race. It seems logical to take that to is beginning to a "source" similiar. Its just soooo far fetched in my mind to consider that all the complexity of life itself wasn't through some design and that there isn't someone, something other than a non-repeatable (to-date) chance happening to set this world into existance.

While some will believe that human derived scientific methodology creates evidence and proof (which I don't fully dissagree with) and if the only possibilities worth believing in are those that "pass the test", until that same scientific evidence can either prove the origins of this earth and all its life or that there is NO God, creator, designer, I'll stick to the faith route.

**=DdogG=** · 07-28-2004, 03:34 PM

the futility of this thread is amazing.

all five sides of this debate argue about why the beliefs of the other are wrong.

a side believing in a deity telling another that science is fallable..... well duh.

a side believing in science telling another that religion is fallable..... well duh.

honestly, this whole debate is based on the capability of a human mind. Your belief in a God does not make him real. Your disbelief does not make him vanish.

The simple fact is, that if God truly is, then he has no need to prove himself worthy to humans. Do you feel the need to talk to, justify yourself, manifest tangible, explainable events to a colony of ants? why would you. even if they were yours and you were watching over them, there is no reason for you to give one ant more dirt for his home? My point is, that trying to ask why God does not talk to people..... there are four answers. 1) there is no God. 2) it would be futile to try to get a mere human to understand. 3) he does, just not to you. 4) he does, you just arent listening.

some people see God talking to them in an unexpected favorable outcome. some people see God talking to them in the beauty the is in this world. Some people dont see anything. Who are you to say that God does or does not exist anyway? no one on this earth has definitive proof either way. a belief in God takes just that. but a belief in the theories of evolution also require the same thing. unfortunately, no one can argue a belief, because there in no proof. everyone here has convictions about thier beliefs, and no one here is doing any good by trying to debate them.

I personally have a strong belief in God. I see things through that belief, and I enjoy my life. when this life is over, if I am right, I will be rewarded. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. what happens if you are wrong?

**luna** · 07-28-2004, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

I personally have a strong belief in God. I see things through that belief, and I enjoy my life. when this life is over, if I am right, I will be rewarded. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. what happens if you are wrong?

I suppose it depends on what kind of God God really is. Would he/she/it be aggravated that one didn't believe? Would he/she/it understand that the person used their logic and decided not to lean one way or another? Would he/she/it care at all?

There's no way to know.

Hell, he might get angry because you constantly interrupt his games of chinese checkers with those nightly prayers.

We'll find out one way or another eventually.

wickerman · 07-28-2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

what happens if you are wrong?

Since there are so many religions all claiming to have a version of what happens in the "afterlife" and no one has a more compelling argument than another and each have followers who have "faith" in the veracity of their own personal belief choice I'd have to answer that the same way as you did, I will have lost nothing.

Brooklyn · 07-28-2004, 03:48 PM

I have an answer for you !! Mot your on target brother ,,.. Answer in by weekend ok ! Ponder this ... Book of Job chp 38

The Lord answered Job out of the storm. He said:
"Who is it that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge ?

Brace yourself like a man ;I will question you, and you shall answer me.

"Where were you when I laid the Earth's foundation ?
Tell me if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it ?

On what were its footings set, or who laid its corner stone while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy ?...

P.S. Theres more to come I am glad to see God stir your heart to even ask such a question and if you are earnestly seeking God he will reveal himself to you.

wickerman · 07-28-2004, 03:55 PM

Brooklyn, I don't understand your post. Could you please explain?

**Wyzcrak** · 07-28-2004, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokerface

The joy I have when I get a stupid piece of SQL to finally work like I want it to.

Amen, brother. Amen.

lol about the chinese checkers, too.

Mot73 · 07-28-2004, 04:03 PM

Seems the choice to NOT believe in God should He exist, may have a consequence....and therefore "Could" cost dearly in a life after, should one exist.

Even believing in God could have its consequences of a rather unfavorable sort, should the Bible be true, "IF" there isn't a repentance and acceptance of Him as a saviour.

"let the flaming begin"..no pun intended

and no...I have no concrete infallable proof.

wickerman · 07-28-2004, 04:14 PM

But even if you decide to believe in a god, WHICH god? yours is no better than another, especially given the "proof" that all religions provide to support their belief choice. I just don't understand how anyone can choose a single religion and cling to it the way people do, given the fact that most religions offer an equally believable version of a god or gods and the afterlife. Why is one right and another wrong?

**DudeMan** · 07-28-2004, 04:15 PM

Quote:

If you subscribe to christianity, there is a penalty...like it or not..otherwise whats the point. Now that I believe in and have made the committment to God, there is no fear. Fear is these days I think considered a bad thing by some or a sign of weakness. I prefer to think of it as a positive stimulis in most cases

ACTUALLY MOT I DO SEE YOUR POINT however, it only applies as posotive if you are christian. if you are muslim then what, hindu, then what,

many christians believe that jesus was the son of god why? because he said he was, and because alot of things happened that baffled people at the time. now i am not going to dog the christian religion, it doesnt serve a purpose, but by that same thinking A houdini would be the son of god if he wanted in the same time period.

like it or not that is a possibility considering people during this time would call women witches because they had big noses, etc etc, yet i have to trust in these people to write accurate accounts of miracles.

i cant place faith in this, and the posotive stimulus you speak of, how posotive was this in the crusades, how many religion based wars are waged. and is this gods will, to obliterate anyone who doesnt show their obidience.

07-28-2004, 02:28 PM	#91 (permalink)
wickerman Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 37 Posts: 230	Re: Evolution vs Creationism I really wasn't intending to attribute what I was posting to you, it's more of how it was portrayed to me, how I felt, when I went through what I call my religious "phase". Really didn't intend to appear as though I was putting words in your mouth.

07-28-2004, 02:32 PM	#92 (permalink)
wickerman Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 37 Posts: 230	Re: Evolution vs Creationism I guess saying "ALL" was a bit presumptive on my part - "Many" or "Most" would have been a better word.

07-28-2004, 02:40 PM	#94 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Evolution vs Creationism Attempting to use logic to "prove" God's existance is like using a spatula to mow the lawn. It's the wrong tool for the job. One's relationship with God is a visceral thing: one either feels it (or recognize the feeling for what it is) or one doesn't. I can't logically prove that I love my wife, much less that she loves me, if you insist that we don't and demand a logical proof. I do know that when I pray and live my life with an effort to keep God close in my heart, I am happier (though I can't prove it). The converse is true - the most miserable times in my life have been those times when I felt furthest from God. Do whatever you like. Believe in God, don't believe in God. Understand though that many people smarter than you or me believe, or don't believe. I don't think it's particularly clever to come down on either side.

07-28-2004, 03:34 PM	#97 (permalink)
=DdogG= Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ennis, TX Age: 31 Posts: 1,773	Re: Evolution vs Creationism the futility of this thread is amazing. all five sides of this debate argue about why the beliefs of the other are wrong. a side believing in a deity telling another that science is fallable..... well duh. a side believing in science telling another that religion is fallable..... well duh. honestly, this whole debate is based on the capability of a human mind. Your belief in a God does not make him real. Your disbelief does not make him vanish. The simple fact is, that if God truly is, then he has no need to prove himself worthy to humans. Do you feel the need to talk to, justify yourself, manifest tangible, explainable events to a colony of ants? why would you. even if they were yours and you were watching over them, there is no reason for you to give one ant more dirt for his home? My point is, that trying to ask why God does not talk to people..... there are four answers. 1) there is no God. 2) it would be futile to try to get a mere human to understand. 3) he does, just not to you. 4) he does, you just arent listening. some people see God talking to them in an unexpected favorable outcome. some people see God talking to them in the beauty the is in this world. Some people dont see anything. Who are you to say that God does or does not exist anyway? no one on this earth has definitive proof either way. a belief in God takes just that. but a belief in the theories of evolution also require the same thing. unfortunately, no one can argue a belief, because there in no proof. everyone here has convictions about thier beliefs, and no one here is doing any good by trying to debate them. I personally have a strong belief in God. I see things through that belief, and I enjoy my life. when this life is over, if I am right, I will be rewarded. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. what happens if you are wrong? __________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. -Harlan Ellison If all else fails: "rm -rf /"

07-28-2004, 03:48 PM	#100 (permalink)
Brooklyn Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 157	Re: Evolution vs Creationism I have an answer for you !! Mot your on target brother ,,.. Answer in by weekend ok ! Ponder this ... Book of Job chp 38 The Lord answered Job out of the storm. He said: "Who is it that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge ? Brace yourself like a man ;I will question you, and you shall answer me. "Where were you when I laid the Earth's foundation ? Tell me if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it ? On what were its footings set, or who laid its corner stone while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy ?... P.S. Theres more to come I am glad to see God stir your heart to even ask such a question and if you are earnestly seeking God he will reveal himself to you.

07-28-2004, 03:55 PM	#101 (permalink)
wickerman Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 37 Posts: 230	Re: Evolution vs Creationism Brooklyn, I don't understand your post. Could you please explain?

07-28-2004, 04:03 PM	#103 (permalink)
Mot73 Join Date: May 2003 Location: DuBois, PA Age: 43 Posts: 586	Re: Evolution vs Creationism Seems the choice to NOT believe in God should He exist, may have a consequence....and therefore "Could" cost dearly in a life after, should one exist. Even believing in God could have its consequences of a rather unfavorable sort, should the Bible be true, "IF" there isn't a repentance and acceptance of Him as a saviour. "let the flaming begin"..no pun intended and no...I have no concrete infallable proof.

07-28-2004, 04:14 PM	#104 (permalink)
wickerman Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 37 Posts: 230	Re: Evolution vs Creationism But even if you decide to believe in a god, WHICH god? yours is no better than another, especially given the "proof" that all religions provide to support their belief choice. I just don't understand how anyone can choose a single religion and cling to it the way people do, given the fact that most religions offer an equally believable version of a god or gods and the afterlife. Why is one right and another wrong?

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