SmokingTarpan

So, a friend of mine and I are having an argument about this issue. I believe he's overreacting, he insists that he's not. Here's the skinny.

Where he goes to school, the graduate student organization coordinator sent out an email to the grad students, apparently about some tragedy that had befallen one of the people in the group. Here is the portion of the email relevant to this discussion:

"Lets all pray for Joanie during this tough time that she is going through. Hope GOD gives her the strength to endure all the suffering."

His position is that, since the email came from someone that is seen as a university official, the word God shouldn't appear in it whatsoever. In further discussion, he says that no university official should ever mention God (or whatever other deity) in any way when they're acting as a university official. This includes going so far as to make sure that religious jewelry is not worn in the open.

My position is, frankly, that's he's an alarmist that's overreacting bigtime. Granted, I think that GOD in the email could have been de-accented away from all caps, but I personally am not offended. If I had received the email, I would not have felt as if I was being forced by the university to follow a specific religion. I see and hear university officials every day wear religious jewelry and mention God, all without ever having a problem or feeling like they were pushing some religious agenda.

Personally, I think it's rather funny that my Catholic friend is all in a tizzy over this, while I (the non-religious one) am not. What are your thoughts? Is he overreacting, or do I just have a lax interpretation of separation of church and state?

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leejo

IMO, he's WAY overreacting, unless he can show that there is an official university policy regarding its treatment of Joanie during this tough time.

It's a horrible fight to pick, too. Your friend should be thinking about Joanie.

It begs the question: what would Jesus do?

Trooper

Yeah this is a touchy topic and always ends in a flame fest. Im a religious person and i dont like the seperation of church and state. But i also know that i shouldnt push my beleifs and thinkings on those who dont want it or refuse to hear it, i have said what i should its up to them to take it how they want. I think in times like that people are more understanding and just over look and think nothing about it. Its a comforting thing to most really.

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

SmokingTarpan

I'm hoping it doesn't go that way for once, as I'm asking about an opinion about the argument between myself and my friend, rather than opinions about the church and state topic itself. I'm not asking, "What do you think about separation?" but rather, "Is it my friend or myself that is interpreting the rule incorrectly?"

I don't really care what people think of the rule itself, because it doesn't matter (and I don't care, either). What matters is who gets the "I'm right!" flag to wave. :P

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leejo

Another IMO: you might want to avoid the argument if it comes up again and instead focus your discussion and attention on Joanie. There's no rule that says you can't punt and instead spend that energy on thinking of something that helps Joanie, right?

CingularDuality

I'm a devout atheist and I see nothing wrong with an email like that. It's a personal comment on a personal issue. Only an idiot could confuse that with the university taking a stance on religion.

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Steeler

Yeah, I don't think there's any rule that covers personal sentiments, even in an official capacity. Now, if the e-mail had said, "There will be a grief/love sacrifice at the drum circle tonight in order to appease the Surfing Gods - attendance with blood donation is mandatory for graduation." - then I think you'd have a problem.

In any case, if it's not a public university then it's purely an internal policy matter and has nothing to do with Church and State.

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SmokingTarpan

That would require me to know or care about Joanie, which I don't. Joanie isn't the issue; my friend's wacky idea of the rule vs. the actual rule is the issue.

edit: this is directed toward leejo

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leejo

Ah! Well then game on!

AMosely

First and foremost, the friend is overreacting. However, I have some questions about the situation.

Is it a private school or a public school?

If it is a public school (state-run), and the graduate student organization coordinator is a paid employee of that school, then this email is inappropriate (though probably not worth freaking out about). If you disagree, look at it this way. Would it be inappropriate to send this email:

"Please do not pray for Joanie during this tough time that she is going through because neither I nor Joanie believes in GOD."

It's equally inappropriate. Why? Because just as it is disrepectful to tell a religious not to pray, it's equally disrespectful to tell a non-religious person to pray. While much of this is up to personal discretion, at the federal and state level - where church and state are supposedly separated - there is no need for discretion because statements such as this should not be made.

leejo

Apropos of nothing, this reminds me of a passage from Catch-22:

The entire book is online at a Russian site: http://www.fictionbook.ru/author/hel..._catch_22.html

Best Book Ever.

So an athiest and a catholic and leejo were in a bar debating separation of Church and State and leejo suggested that they all go watch a movie about gladiators...

SmokingTarpan

Hmm... thought I mentioned it earlier, but I guess not. Yes, it is a public, state-run university.

The reason why I don't believes it violates separation is that it comes off more as a personal statement instead of "You are required by the university to pray to the Catholic God to help Joanie through her troubles."

I've never interpreted separation as complete and utter, as in no mention of religion ever; merely as not allowing state-funded institutions to force people to practice one way or another. That's part of why I came here to you guys, I want to see who's interpreting things incorrectly. Remember, by my friend's argument, university officials aren't allowed to have personal religious symbols visibile while on the job, either.

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Rincewind

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xTYBALTx

Personal sentiments from an university employee on his on time supporting GOD: okay.

Personal sentiments from an university employee on university time supporting GOD: okay.

Speaking on behalf of the university as if the university is GOD's university AND coming from an employee of the university: not okay.


In other words, if the university provost, speaking at graduation, wants to say, "May GOD bless this whole class with happiness and joyousness!! Hallelujah!!", that would be just fine with me. If he wants to say "Our university, inshallah, bestows upon these promising young students our highest accolades," that is not cool.

In one instance, he is speaking for himself. In the other instance, he is speaking for the university. In the former, he may say whatever his heart desires. In the latter, he may not.

As an atheist, I will roll my eyes equally to both type of comments. But only one is innappropriate.

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Apophis

I don't believe that separation of church and state was ever supposed to enforce a "no mention of religion" policy. It was created to stop the government from forcing a state religion upon us.

A lot of the whole separation of church and state issues these days seem to be people just going out of their way to either a) be offended or b) find something else to gripe about.

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