Wanna tell Republicans where to go? - Page 2

**Pokerface** · 08-12-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceCold

So you amend the law as many times as it takes to complicate things for the loopholers and simplify things for the regular Joe...

So we complicate the law over and aver again, and it's supposed to stay simple???
*boggle* Mmmmkay... Good luck with that. Here in reality, we'll wait patiently for your return.

**USN_Squid** · 08-12-2004, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintermute

Can anyone show me to some criticism of the Fair Tax, preferably from some economics/ business expert. There must be disadvantages to it, so what are they? It seems fair, cheap and simple to me, but it must be too good to be true.

Here is some criticism of the plan:

"Families already squeezed by rising health care costs, gas costs and college costs would have to carry a whole new tax burden," Kerry said in a statement.

But as usual John Kerry is on the wrong side of this issue and is misinformed. Although The Fair Tax does place a new tax on everyone, at the same time it removes ALL income tax AND the dreaded payroll tax (soc.security, etc.) that the Dems always fall back on when talking about tax cuts for the rich. In addition to that there is an exemption for lower income earners. It's actually yet another tax CUT for those poorer families, which must be the real reason Kerry is against it.

**leejo** · 08-12-2004, 01:24 PM

Wait a minute. Isn't he the guy who pushed for a high gas tax? Where was his concern for the poor then?

Yuck. High gas tax, jack up the tax on cigarettes (consumers of which skew strongly toward the poor), etc.

IceCold · 08-12-2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I think it's better to fine or imprison people who break a simple law.

Why replace the tax-code tome with another tax-code tome that no-one understands and everyone hates?

Anyhoo. We won't decide this matter and nothing will happen for a long time anyway.

Well, that's just it... If the lawyers find a way to prove in court that their accountant didn't in fact break the law as written, what then? The current Tax Code is not only written in a complicated manner, but its implementation is complicated. Write the new code so that it is simple to comply with but difficult to get around. That's all that matters. If you and I can pay our taxes without having to submit any paperwork, what's the problem? If a corporate fat cat has to hire a team of lawyers and accountants to try and find a loophole in the new tax code, what's the problem?

I think you all are underestimating the difficulty in writing a "simple law".

**Wolfie** · 08-12-2004, 01:32 PM

The thing about the fair tax law also is that there are fewer entities for the IRS to check, therefor the chances of someone getting around and not paying the tax decreases (IRS would not have to audit income tax returns anymore, just tax businesses selling the goods to make sure they are reporting the proper taxes and paying what they should be paying).

And yes, the lawyers and the accountants will lobby to keep this from happening as a huge business has blossomed because of the complicated US tax codes.

Simple tax code:

All purchases are subject to a 10 percent national sales tax.

Anyone earning less than 20,000 a year is egible for income credit.

Boom, simple.

**phyllis** · 08-12-2004, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

: the premise is that everyone in the country pays 10% (or whatever number they come up with) sales tax on all taxable goods.

Right on ! and in that manner, we (the USofA) could at least collect a little money in taxes from the illegals that send the money "home" ...They'd at least have to contribute tax money for day to day living supplies

**USN_Squid** · 08-12-2004, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phyllis

Right on ! and in that manner, we (the USofA) could at least collect a little money in taxes from the illegals that send the money "home" ...They'd at least have to contribute tax money for day to day living supplies

Not only the illegals, but tourists, criminals and current tax evaders. Everybody's gotta buy toilet paper, and uh other stuff.

Fait_Maker · 08-13-2004, 12:29 AM

I found this to be interesting... found it with a google alert on FairTax..

FairTax.org's Response to Kerry Campaign Statements Regarding a National Retail Sales Tax

To: National Desk, Political Reporter

Contact: Tom Wright or Genie Hayes, 1-800-FAIRTAX, both of FairTax.org

HOUSTON, Aug. 12 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Following is a statement by FairTax.org:

As a nonpartisan group forwarding a well-researched replacement for income and Social Security taxation, we breathed a deep sigh of relief when the President did not call for fundamental tax replacement in his second term agenda. We, perhaps naively, thought this move by the President and his campaign staff might remove our organization, FairTax.org, from the partisan presidential fight. Evidently not.

Therefore, it is now time to provide some facts on the FairTax (HR 25/S 1493).

1. Our organization did an extensive presentation of our proposal to President Clinton when he was in office. Our organization presented our proposal to President Bush in a like manner. However, our organization has not been in direct communication with President Bush or his administration regarding this issue in well over a year. We met with Sen. Kerry's tax aide in Washington yesterday. We do have more than 600,000 members who call, fax, e-mail, or visit their elected servants regularly, like our volunteer did in Niceville, Florida.

2. It is our understanding from the media that fundamental tax replacement or reform is not a part of the President's second- term agenda. We know this from media reports and solely from media reports.

3. If the President is considering such a plan, we certainly hope it is ours but we do not know. Assuming it is ours, we will be happy to make the basics of our plan well known.

4. The FairTax ends federal paycheck deductions of all kinds; the working man or woman gets a full paycheck. The plan is a total replacement for all income and Social Security taxes: Personal, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, earned income tax credit, Social Security, Medicare, self- employment, and corporate taxes.

5. The FairTax plan is revenue neutral; it neither raises nor lowers taxes. The rate is set to raise the same revenue the replaced taxes raise today. For most taxpayers, that is a zero sum game. As an organization, we wish to remove ourselves from battles over tax hikes or cuts, special interests, winners and losers. While the FairTax will make federal taxes very, very obvious (and easy for taxpayers to control themselves), there is no intention to give large groups any break over what they are paying now, nor to burden another group. With one significant exception. See No. 11 below.

6. The FairTax is a progressive sales tax. Only the biggest spenders pay the maximum rate; those at or below the poverty level pay an honest and transparent nothing. No one living at or under the poverty level as determined the by the Department of Health & Human Services will pay any federal tax (hidden or obvious) on any of their spending. Today our working poor are burdened with the most regressive tax of all, Social Security, which they pay with every paycheck their entire working lives. The FairTax ends that. Those same people are targeted by unscrupulous tax preparers and the IRS due to the complexity of the earned income tax credit. People on fixed income (and every other consumer in America) pay an average of 22 percent in hidden corporate taxes and compliance costs with every good they buy. Hidden taxes in services average 25 percent. The FairTax ends this. The FairTax does not tax used goods. And finally, a rebate zeros the tax up to the poverty level.

EFFECTIVE TAX RATES

See also http://www.fairtax.org/images/taxrates.jpg

Single parent / two children / minimum wage

Annual income: $10,712/year

Current System: 3.3 percent

FairTax System: -2.9 percent

--

A couple living solely on Social Security

Annual income: $25,944/year

Current System: 22.0 percent

FairTax System: 10.3 percent

--

Married couple / two children

Annual income: $32,136/year

Current System: 31.5 percent

FairTax System: 9.2 percent

--

Single mother / two children and mortgage

Annual income: $45,000

Current System: 30.2 percent

FairTax System: 10.6 percent

--

Married couple /two children and mortgage

Annual income: $65,000

Current System: 30.5 percent

FairTax System: 13.6 percent

--

Married couple / two children / homeowner

Annual income: $100,000/year

Current System: 33.8 percent

FairTax System: 15.0 percent

--

7. The FairTax encourages American manufacturing. American- made goods will be more affordable at home and more competitive overseas. This will bring good jobs back to our shores, as well as keeping those we have, here. The FairTax is a simple and elegant solution to the FSC/ETI replacement legislation that is hung up in Congress.

8. The FairTax solves the growing problem of the alternative minimum tax.

9. The FairTax provides the funds necessary for Social Security reform, whatever form that might take, without Draconian hikes in payroll taxes that are a huge burden on working class Americans.

10. Taxpayers decide how much tax they pay above the poverty level. The wealthy will finally be taxed according to their lifestyle, which the income tax has miserably failed to do since its inception; those who choose to live modestly will pay less (both as a percentage of spending and overall taxes paid). And the FairTax successfully taxes accumulated wealth, which the estate tax does not.

11. The criminal, underground, drug, and porn industry pay taxes under the FairTax. Under the income tax these groups -- by and large -- do not pay income or payroll taxes. Under the FairTax, they will when they buy their jewelry, cars, furs, and more.

12. When we move to the FairTax, the overall cost of raising the same federal revenue is reduced by some 90 percent. Just as a rule of thumb, the number of tax returns (thus points of surveillance, collection, enforcement, audits, prosecution, etc.) is currently about 200 million (IRS website). Under the FairTax, we estimate there will be some 20 million retail sales tax returns to state sales tax collection agencies, where an estimated 90 percent of sales taxes are collected by eight percent of retailers. Estimates on this reduction begin with a conservative $200 billion each year.

13. Tax cheating is reduced under a sales tax. We are Americans, we hate taxes, we are creative, and we will cheat successfully, just as we do today. However, it takes two to cheat with a sales tax: You and that cashier at Wal-Mart. With 90 percent of all sales taxes collected by some eight percent of retailers, cheating and the black market moves into the rounding error category, from the rampant category where it is with the income tax today.

14. We've spent more than $22 million in market and economic research. If there are any more questions about just who we are and what we are up to, I suggest taking a look at our website -- http://www.fairtax.org -- where there is an extensive FAQ. Or calling 1-800-FAIRTAX and asking for Tom Wright or Genie Hayes.

15. The Florida FairTax volunteer who questioned the President in Niceville, Florida is Nate Moore. Nate has been a member of our organization since 2003 and we appreciate his enthusiasm. We encourage all of our members to contact their elected servants at every possible opportunity.

Wintermute · 08-13-2004, 01:25 PM

The one disadvantage I can see is that the retail black market will flourish. On the other hand, the current "cash in hand" black market will disapear.

I have never seen and fairtax.org literature stating who will pay *more*, only who will pay less. It stands to reason that some demographics will be worse off, who are they?

**Wolfie** · 08-13-2004, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintermute

I have never seen and fairtax.org literature stating who will pay *more*, only who will pay less. It stands to reason that some demographics will be worse off, who are they?

Politicians, who instead of prioritizing budgets, increase taxes on select groups of Americans to pay for what they can not in the first place

**USN_Squid** · 08-13-2004, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintermute

The one disadvantage I can see is that the retail black market will flourish. On the other hand, the current "cash in hand" black market will disapear.

I have never seen and fairtax.org literature stating who will pay *more*, only who will pay less. It stands to reason that some demographics will be worse off, who are they?

The only group I can see having an increase would be luxury item buyers. That $2,000,000 yacht just got a bit more expensive. Even if "expensed" in a corporation that corporation will have to pay sales tax on it instead of writing it off as a depreciable asset.

One of the biggest complaints of our current tax system are the loopholes for the rich. As has been said before there will always be loopholes as long as taxes are required, but I think this system gets rid of many large dollar loopholes currently in the system. One of them being business write offs that are really not business related.

IceCold · 08-13-2004, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintermute

I have never seen and fairtax.org literature stating who will pay *more*, only who will pay less. It stands to reason that some demographics will be worse off, who are they?

Businesses/big spenders.

The poor will be paying less simply because a higher percentage of their purchases will be non-taxable "necessary" items.

The rich will be paying more simply because a higher percentage of their purchases will be taxable "luxery" items.

08-12-2004, 01:24 PM	#18 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,839	Re: Wanna tell Republicans where to go? Wait a minute. Isn't he the guy who pushed for a high gas tax? Where was his concern for the poor then? Yuck. High gas tax, jack up the tax on cigarettes (consumers of which skew strongly toward the poor), etc.

08-12-2004, 01:32 PM	#20 (permalink)
Wolfie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 1,405	Re: Wanna tell Republicans where to go? The thing about the fair tax law also is that there are fewer entities for the IRS to check, therefor the chances of someone getting around and not paying the tax decreases (IRS would not have to audit income tax returns anymore, just tax businesses selling the goods to make sure they are reporting the proper taxes and paying what they should be paying). And yes, the lawyers and the accountants will lobby to keep this from happening as a huge business has blossomed because of the complicated US tax codes. Simple tax code: All purchases are subject to a 10 percent national sales tax. Anyone earning less than 20,000 a year is egible for income credit. Boom, simple.

08-13-2004, 12:29 AM	#23 (permalink)
Fait_Maker Join Date: Mar 2004 Age: 37 Posts: 467	Re: Wanna tell Republicans where to go? I found this to be interesting... found it with a google alert on FairTax.. FairTax.org's Response to Kerry Campaign Statements Regarding a National Retail Sales Tax To: National Desk, Political Reporter Contact: Tom Wright or Genie Hayes, 1-800-FAIRTAX, both of FairTax.org HOUSTON, Aug. 12 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Following is a statement by FairTax.org: As a nonpartisan group forwarding a well-researched replacement for income and Social Security taxation, we breathed a deep sigh of relief when the President did not call for fundamental tax replacement in his second term agenda. We, perhaps naively, thought this move by the President and his campaign staff might remove our organization, FairTax.org, from the partisan presidential fight. Evidently not. Therefore, it is now time to provide some facts on the FairTax (HR 25/S 1493). 1. Our organization did an extensive presentation of our proposal to President Clinton when he was in office. Our organization presented our proposal to President Bush in a like manner. However, our organization has not been in direct communication with President Bush or his administration regarding this issue in well over a year. We met with Sen. Kerry's tax aide in Washington yesterday. We do have more than 600,000 members who call, fax, e-mail, or visit their elected servants regularly, like our volunteer did in Niceville, Florida. 2. It is our understanding from the media that fundamental tax replacement or reform is not a part of the President's second- term agenda. We know this from media reports and solely from media reports. 3. If the President is considering such a plan, we certainly hope it is ours but we do not know. Assuming it is ours, we will be happy to make the basics of our plan well known. 4. The FairTax ends federal paycheck deductions of all kinds; the working man or woman gets a full paycheck. The plan is a total replacement for all income and Social Security taxes: Personal, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, earned income tax credit, Social Security, Medicare, self- employment, and corporate taxes. 5. The FairTax plan is revenue neutral; it neither raises nor lowers taxes. The rate is set to raise the same revenue the replaced taxes raise today. For most taxpayers, that is a zero sum game. As an organization, we wish to remove ourselves from battles over tax hikes or cuts, special interests, winners and losers. While the FairTax will make federal taxes very, very obvious (and easy for taxpayers to control themselves), there is no intention to give large groups any break over what they are paying now, nor to burden another group. With one significant exception. See No. 11 below. 6. The FairTax is a progressive sales tax. Only the biggest spenders pay the maximum rate; those at or below the poverty level pay an honest and transparent nothing. No one living at or under the poverty level as determined the by the Department of Health & Human Services will pay any federal tax (hidden or obvious) on any of their spending. Today our working poor are burdened with the most regressive tax of all, Social Security, which they pay with every paycheck their entire working lives. The FairTax ends that. Those same people are targeted by unscrupulous tax preparers and the IRS due to the complexity of the earned income tax credit. People on fixed income (and every other consumer in America) pay an average of 22 percent in hidden corporate taxes and compliance costs with every good they buy. Hidden taxes in services average 25 percent. The FairTax ends this. The FairTax does not tax used goods. And finally, a rebate zeros the tax up to the poverty level. EFFECTIVE TAX RATES See also http://www.fairtax.org/images/taxrates.jpg Single parent / two children / minimum wage Annual income: $10,712/year Current System: 3.3 percent FairTax System: -2.9 percent -- A couple living solely on Social Security Annual income: $25,944/year Current System: 22.0 percent FairTax System: 10.3 percent -- Married couple / two children Annual income: $32,136/year Current System: 31.5 percent FairTax System: 9.2 percent -- Single mother / two children and mortgage Annual income: $45,000 Current System: 30.2 percent FairTax System: 10.6 percent -- Married couple /two children and mortgage Annual income: $65,000 Current System: 30.5 percent FairTax System: 13.6 percent -- Married couple / two children / homeowner Annual income: $100,000/year Current System: 33.8 percent FairTax System: 15.0 percent -- 7. The FairTax encourages American manufacturing. American- made goods will be more affordable at home and more competitive overseas. This will bring good jobs back to our shores, as well as keeping those we have, here. The FairTax is a simple and elegant solution to the FSC/ETI replacement legislation that is hung up in Congress. 8. The FairTax solves the growing problem of the alternative minimum tax. 9. The FairTax provides the funds necessary for Social Security reform, whatever form that might take, without Draconian hikes in payroll taxes that are a huge burden on working class Americans. 10. Taxpayers decide how much tax they pay above the poverty level. The wealthy will finally be taxed according to their lifestyle, which the income tax has miserably failed to do since its inception; those who choose to live modestly will pay less (both as a percentage of spending and overall taxes paid). And the FairTax successfully taxes accumulated wealth, which the estate tax does not. 11. The criminal, underground, drug, and porn industry pay taxes under the FairTax. Under the income tax these groups -- by and large -- do not pay income or payroll taxes. Under the FairTax, they will when they buy their jewelry, cars, furs, and more. 12. When we move to the FairTax, the overall cost of raising the same federal revenue is reduced by some 90 percent. Just as a rule of thumb, the number of tax returns (thus points of surveillance, collection, enforcement, audits, prosecution, etc.) is currently about 200 million (IRS website). Under the FairTax, we estimate there will be some 20 million retail sales tax returns to state sales tax collection agencies, where an estimated 90 percent of sales taxes are collected by eight percent of retailers. Estimates on this reduction begin with a conservative $200 billion each year. 13. Tax cheating is reduced under a sales tax. We are Americans, we hate taxes, we are creative, and we will cheat successfully, just as we do today. However, it takes two to cheat with a sales tax: You and that cashier at Wal-Mart. With 90 percent of all sales taxes collected by some eight percent of retailers, cheating and the black market moves into the rounding error category, from the rampant category where it is with the income tax today. 14. We've spent more than $22 million in market and economic research. If there are any more questions about just who we are and what we are up to, I suggest taking a look at our website -- http://www.fairtax.org -- where there is an extensive FAQ. Or calling 1-800-FAIRTAX and asking for Tom Wright or Genie Hayes. 15. The Florida FairTax volunteer who questioned the President in Niceville, Florida is Nate Moore. Nate has been a member of our organization since 2003 and we appreciate his enthusiasm. We encourage all of our members to contact their elected servants at every possible opportunity. __________________

08-13-2004, 01:25 PM	#24 (permalink)
Wintermute Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Age: 24 Posts: 1,166	Re: Wanna tell Republicans where to go? The one disadvantage I can see is that the retail black market will flourish. On the other hand, the current "cash in hand" black market will disapear. I have never seen and fairtax.org literature stating who will pay more, only who will pay less. It stands to reason that some demographics will be worse off, who are they? __________________ Wintermute Play EVE online. It's like being an accounting addict in space. www.MakePovertyHistory.com

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