leejo

I think your attitude and sarcasm are irresponsible. There is a balance between throwing these people in a pit and treating each one like O.J. That balance won't be found if everyone who disagrees slightly or raises a concern is treated as if they just clubbed a baby seal.

It's naive to think that our public opinion and legal systems aren't being used against us. This doesn't mean that we should ignore public opinion or throw away legal protections, but it does suggest to me that we should be very cautious and treat these areas as danger zones.

I also accept the fact that war is suffering. I accept that many innocent people will be killed or have their lives destroyed. I believe that your approach and insistence on unrealistic precision will, ultimately, weaken us and strengthen our enemy to the point at which we truly do have an existential fight on our hands, at which point we'll have a total war anyway and slaughter a-plenty. And I think the road to hell is being paved with a lot of good intentions today.

xTYBALTx

So you consider our own legal system to require "unrealistic precision"?

I agree. But those good intentions which will lead us to hell are yours, not mine.

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leejo

I think that attempting to apply that legal system to war is unrealistic.

OK.

Kerostasis

Our legal system is built around the principle that it is better to let 10 guilty men go free than to throw 1 innocent man in jail. Thats a fine sentiment in peacetime, but it's simply not very effective in war. The rules have to change.

Does this mean some innocent people will suffer? Yes, but EVERY plan for dealing with war involves the suffering of innocents, even the "do nothing" plan. The goal is to choose the plan the involves the LEAST suffering of innocents. Furthermore, the goal is usually to choose a plan that favors less suffering of your own innocents over less suffering of enemy innocents.

Disclaimer: That last line is very nationally-oriented. If you are not an American, of course I am not going to convince you to hold Americans as more important than others. You are going to believe that your own countrymen are more important. Thats normal. So if you're not an American, don't see this as an attempt to convince you we SHOULD be doing this, because thats never going to happen. Just see this as an attempt to explain WHY we're doing this. Each nation will always hold its own as paramount--the only debate is how much preference to give. Is it only a tie-breaker factor to be considered when all else is equal, or is it somewhat more than that? But if a soldier from my country is staring down a soldier from another country, and the only "crime" either has comitted was to sign up for the army, I am always going to vote for my own soldier to come out victorious. In fact, if its one life of ours vs 10 lives of the enemy, I'd still root for ours. But I'd never expect a citizen of that country to agree with me.

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xTYBALTx

If we are in a war, then these people are POW's and should be treated as such.

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Kerostasis

Thats basically what we're doing already. Some of the legal terms are different, but the actual treatment is pretty much that.

(Note that for all the cries about torture, no one has actually come forward to prove the US has actually DONE it.)

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Rincewind

No it isn't.

No they don't.

I fixed your mistake.

Hey, why not? Militant nationalism worked wonders in the past....

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Kerostasis

I reject your entire post as unfounded.

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Rincewind

Why not? It's the sandbox after all.

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Steeler

This entire discussion would be so much more interetsing if the detainee bill in question actually contributed to the war effort in a meaningful way instead of simply covering up the prosecutable offenses of the administration.

Instead we are reduced to this stupid "we have to be tough on terrorists" rhetoric. Duh. Everyone agrees with that premise. But it would be nice if the government would bother to prove that who they are holding are in fact terrorists, and not wayward Canadians, British nationals, Afghani farmers and who knows who else?

Also, it would be nice if we would not engage in the same acts of torture for which we once prosecuted the Germans after WWII. They're not very useful for information gathering and they are morally reprehensible and an insult to the honor of the armed services.

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Greflin

I've never seen such a sorry group of cowards in my life.
Let's sell some of our freedom for the right to huddle on our knees in the dark and enjoy what "freedom" we have left...

Anyone willing to give up their freedom doesn't deserve it. I would rather not have the KGB 2.0 running free in America. This is not what America is about. America was made to get away from tyranny, and now we have given our government the right to it. Anyone who does not see this as an attack on EVERYONES civil liberties is blind. You can not shred the constitution at will, this is exactly what terrorists want. I can just imagine how every man/woman who has died in conflict for these freedoms would feel right now. Hooray for destroying what they fought for. Pure cowardice.

CingularDuality

This bill changes nothing.

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Rincewind

Time will tell.

And: Then why lobby for it, write it, and pass it?

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CingularDuality

To influence the public's perception of things...

Boiling a frog slowly or tossing him in quickly, y'know?

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xTYBALTx

I believe that's the problem. My (our) point is that our current practices should change.

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