leejo

Preach on brother!

leejo

If they're in uniform, deal. Otherwise, I plan to execute a fleeing manouver.

xTYBALTx

Resources aren't expended for no reason, I'll grant that. But they may well be expended for bad reasons. I suppose the question raised by the tiny bit of information we're given in the video was precisely to that effect - was this a good decision?

While we can't draw any firm conclusions due to a lack of information, the video simply seems to suggest that there may not have been a good reason.

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leejo

My money is on the guys who have executed countless training exercises designed precisely to inculcate good judgment with regard to killing combatants vs. noncombatants.

This guy suggests that these simple farmers drove their truck in a warzone for the express purpose of running into the middle of the field to flop some stick wrapped in canvas into the dirt. My grandfather was a farmer. I have driven a tractor on his farm and plowed the fields. I cannot imagine what that object was other than an rpg. Any ideas?

To me it looks like a guy attempting to bury a weapon, then pacing off the distance from the road for later recovery. In any case, the video doesn't tell the whole story as you say. Again, my money is that the rest of the story vindicates these troops. Listening to that guy feels a lot like watching the sequence in Stone's JFK in which they discuss the "magic bullet": it's paranoid and ignorant.

Apophis

Personally, I think the only thing this video says is that us folks on the Internet trying to analyze what's going on don't have the first clue.

We don't know why the Apache was there.
We don't know these guys were "farmers".
We don't know what was thrown in the field.
We don't know what the soldiers on the ground observed.
We don't know there were soldiers on the ground.

We don't know squat other than an Apache engaged three contacts in a field.

But the video, produced by an individual who obviously thinks he has all the answers, is doing the job the author intended; Injecting fictional information into a snippit of video to promote a personal agenda without providing any real facts.

He's a first rate politically motivated armchair analyst.

"I saw it on the Internet, it's got to be true!"

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Leonidas

You stole my post! Well put, sir. That sums up my feelings on the subject.

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leejo

Or

He hates those farmers! Stay away from the farmers!

El_Gringo_Grande

You are assuming that the men with arms are right. That they are to be trusted.

That, if nothing else, that the law of the land and the system of laws will right any wrong.

Unless they deem you a enemy combatent. Then all those laws no are longer applicable. Or, god fobid, you are not an american citizen or have duel citizenship and are mis-identified as a terroist.

There is mistrust being created by the current approach to the laws. Agree or disagree wether it is justified, it is there. Keep increasing that mistrust in the name of saftey and terrorists will again be home grown.

But yes. If you are a conservative white christian then you don't have to fear about anything if you have done nothing wrong. Maybe.

In addition. The people attacked are in another country. They are not Americans. They have to live day in and day out with the fear of violence from other tribes/sects/factions and Coalition forces. They need to defend themselves from the sectarian violence. Don't they? Why would they think the Americans any better than the sunni/shiite?

I do agree that they probably should trust the Coalition forces. But put yourself in their position, would you? Wouldn't you want to have some weapons and hide them from everybody until you needed them? To maybe prevent you or other members of your family being executed for being the wrong tribe?

It is difficult over there. Beyond any single persons comprehension. This difficulty makes it impossible to be the good guys or the bad guys. In most cases individuals are simply fighting for survival.

That is what is sad. The whole damn mess. That kind of mess cannot be cleaned up by the military. But they are asked to clean it up. Again, sad.

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Pokerface

On a philosophical note, is it fiction if what you've made up is true?

<hijack>
Forgetting the current example, if you present something as fact, without knowing it's fact, and it turns out to indeed be true, have you spouted fiction?"
</hijack>

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Ferris Bueller

Apophis is right on the money.
The problem is that there are a lot of people out there who take these kinds of things as gospel. Thankfully, we all belong to a community of people (referring to TG of course) who are smart enough to take things like this and analyze them and come to the conclusion that it may be fact, it may be a load of excrement, but we dont have enough information to decide, so we're simply going to let it slip away into nothingness.

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WhiskeySix

how can you say that - didn't you see the exhaust pipe of the tractor relative to the cross-hairs??? It was CLEARLY on a hill!? THAT'S A FACT JACK!


And I'm sure Old McLeejo will back me up when I say trecherous hill like that REQUIRES way-marker-sticks for tractor driving... especially at 7:30pm. (also both facts.. look it up)

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CingularDuality

Right around the 5:50 mark, the person from which the pilot and gunner are requesting permission to engage says that the field is just south of his location. Sounds like that person is acting somewhat as an FO for this operation.

I haven't bothered to look up the details of this video on Google, but I'm sure there's more factual information out there regarding this incident.

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leejo

Jeeze with support like that, our troops don't need enemies.

Bommando

Now I probably don't have a lot of insight into the mind of a soldier, but I tell you right now, if someone is recording my actions both verbal and visual I am certainly not going to take part in a joy killing. I was under the impression that to be part of a gunship crew, you needed a higher level of education than the average grunt (correct me if I'm wrong), so I would pretty much rule out that the guy making the kills was stupid enough to open up without reason while being monitored.

There is just too much information missing for me to judge this either way, but at this stage, Mr. Dramatic with the webcam doesn't hold much credence. All the spacial sloping commentary is pure fluff and I doubt he is qualified to accurately interpret IR footage. I could barely make out anything detailed from that footage and I'd wager our commentator is not that much more informed than I am to make those calls.

Yes, the gunner did sound rather overanxious to pull the trigger, but conversely, the body language of the men in the field didn't sit right with me either. None of the footage confirmed a reason to shoot for me, but I am also not privy to the rest of the intel surrounding the occurrence.

Again, I am hardly qualified to make the call, but my point is that the commentator seems even more eager to find fault here than the gunner is to make that kill. If there was any credence to the question of whether this was justified, I'd imagine that the exposure would warrant a response from the occupying forces. I found nothing official pertaining to the issue.

Here's some more footage for those BF2 players out there.

CingularDuality

When judging whether or not a soldier seems anxious to kill, you must realize that soldiers have already made the decision to do their job. That's why they're there. Can you imagine if your job was to kill people? Don't you think you'd talk differently? Surgeons talk about amputating limbs all the time. But if they talk to you or you family about cutting off YOUR leg, well, unless they have a good bedside manner, they're going to seem cold, callous and anxious to remove your leg. The doctor knows that removing your leg is what's best for you, just as the soldier knows that killing the unarmed arms smuggler today will prevent hundreds of deaths tomorrow.

I'm not saying that's the situation here. For all I know the soldiers could be murderous psychos, but I think the possibility of my explanation is much, MUCH more likely.


Ha! That's funny!

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