No-Swipe Credit Cards and You - Page 3

**leejo** · 10-23-2006, 08:43 PM

Professional hacker. With a white hat.

wildcat2000 · 10-23-2006, 09:32 PM

The black strip on the back of your credit cards or debit cards wear out too fast, that's why they are probably doing it. Only one of my cards has that new "Blink" technology, but many stores don't have the technology to use the no swipe credit card. The only one I noticed that has it is Walgreens.

**Wimpinator** · 10-23-2006, 11:06 PM

A small reader is EASILY doable for under $100. If you want to go the simple route then an Arduino (www.arduino.cc) board can be had for $32. Parallax makes a prebuilt RFID reader module for $39 (www.parallax.com). Add afew passive bits for a couple of bucks and you can store 512 bytes of RFID data in the on-board EEPROM on the Arduino board. If you're greedy you can add more EEPROM for a couple of bucks. Add code and walk around with this thing gathering all of the RFID data around.

(The data from the RFID reader came from Make magazine volume 6)

Hambergler · 10-24-2006, 12:47 AM

3 Questions.

1. Are these tags going to be put into every credit card?

2. I carry my credit cards and money in metal cigaret case. Will that protect me?

3.Can someone tell me what the hell is so wrong with swiping?

I read a book called "No place to Hide" it was about what happens to all your personal information and how it gets baught and sold by big billion dollar companies like choicepoint and axium. Both of which have been hacked recently. It also talked about amazing and scary surveillance techniques. John Poindexter is developing a system where a camera can identify people by their walk, when it's too dark for face recognition. I think rfid tags are not just for products anymore. I think they are there to mass monitor people. And credit cards are an easy way to make most people carry them. Next there going to put them into money and clothing. Call me paranoid, but there is money to be made.

http://www.amazon.com/No-Place-Hide-...e=UTF8&s=books

**CingularDuality** · 10-24-2006, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hambergler

And credit cards are an easy way to make most people carry them.

How does that make anyone carry them?

Hambergler · 10-24-2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

How does that make anyone carry them?

I meant make in the create definition. Not the force definition. I think cause may have been a better word.

**Apophis** · 10-24-2006, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hambergler

3 Questions.

1. Are these tags going to be put into every credit card?

2. I carry my credit cards and money in metal cigaret case. Will that protect me?

3.Can someone tell me what the hell is so wrong with swiping?

1. That is unknown. I'm sure some of the smaller issuing banks won't bother with RFID, but unless something catastropic happens with the larger banks and early adopters, I believe RFID tags in credit/debit cards will become the norm.

2. It should. Passive RFID tags (such as the ones in US passports, credit cards, etc.) do not have batteries. They are powered by the RFID reader through tiny electrical currents generated by the incoming RF signal to the tag. This is enough energy to get the passive RFID tag to respond with its payload. As such, it's easy to prevent a passive RFID tag from being read. Wrapping it in tin-foil does the job too.

3. Absolutely nothing. Someone said that the mag stripe on the back of the cards wears out too quickly. I'm not sure about that. I keep my cards in my wallet and I can't remember the last time I've had a mag stripe go out on me before the card itself expired. Those things can take a SERIOUS beating and still be read by modern readers. They are engineered to do so. If you've got mag stripes going bad, you might just have gotten a bad card from a bad batch or you're doing something funky to the card. I guess RFID could be considered "easier" because you don't need to consider the orientation and direction to swipe the card. Just tap and go.

Turbo · 10-24-2006, 08:05 AM

I was watching Good Morning America before work and they had an expert on talking about this. Pretty interesting.

**Apophis** · 10-24-2006, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo

I was watching Good Morning America before work and they had an expert on talking about this. Pretty interesting.

Who was it? Do you recall? What did they have to say?

**Acid** · 10-24-2006, 09:55 AM

Yeah, I saw that on Good Morning America, but I couldn't tell who was speaking about it. They were talking about how it was a bad idea and how someone could walk through streets grabbing card numbers.

**Switchcraft** · 10-24-2006, 11:25 PM

My last black passport had an RFID chip in it. "They" explained to me that the cover had an RF-blocking technology built into it, so that it could not be read while shut. As far as I know, that's what the new civilian models all contain. My experience with TEMPEST stuff says that's possible, but a couple security experts I've heard talk about the issue say that's not a great idea, but did not elaborate.

Any thoughts? To me, it wouldn't matter even if it did work, because that would just mean people would swipe your info while going through customs, instead of while in the bathroom. But I'd like to know why it wouldn't work otherwise.

**CingularDuality** · 10-25-2006, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

My last black passport had an RFID chip in it. "They" explained to me that the cover had an RF-blocking technology built into it, so that it could not be read while shut. As far as I know, that's what the new civilian models all contain. My experience with TEMPEST stuff says that's possible, but a couple security experts I've heard talk about the issue say that's not a great idea, but did not elaborate.

Any thoughts? To me, it wouldn't matter even if it did work, because that would just mean people would swipe your info while going through customs, instead of while in the bathroom. But I'd like to know why it wouldn't work otherwise.

I would think that to block RF completely, you'd have to put the chip inside a Faraday cage. Plain ol' foil wouldn't be that effective, copper mesh would be better... The apertures in the mesh would have to be smaller than the RF wavelengths that you're concerned about. I don't see how limiting access to your personal information, even if it's not 100% effective, is not a great idea.

Why'd you have a black passport?

Oh, and speaking of TEMPEST, here's a cool program that I recently found: http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/

xTYBALTx · 10-25-2006, 02:32 AM

Would it be possible to use a tool, the bluetooth gun* comes to mind, and be able to read RFID chips at extrodinary ranges and through protection?

*The bluetooth gun was something I saw on the internet a few years ago. Something about being able to hack Blackberrys from a mile away if they used a focused antenna.

**CingularDuality** · 10-25-2006, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

Would it be possible to use a tool, the bluetooth gun* comes to mind, and be able to read RFID chips at extrodinary ranges and through protection?

Theoretically, with the right shielding, nothing can read them... The problem, of course, is that the whole reason for carrying the chip is to use them, so, to use them, you have to take them out of the shielding. What distance and what type of power is required to read them depends on the frequency and the type of antenna you're using...

Slashdot brought this to my attention: http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/p...rfid_draft.pdf

**Apophis** · 10-25-2006, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

My last black passport had an RFID chip in it. "They" explained to me that the cover had an RF-blocking technology built into it, so that it could not be read while shut. As far as I know, that's what the new civilian models all contain. My experience with TEMPEST stuff says that's possible, but a couple security experts I've heard talk about the issue say that's not a great idea, but did not elaborate.

Any thoughts? To me, it wouldn't matter even if it did work, because that would just mean people would swipe your info while going through customs, instead of while in the bathroom. But I'd like to know why it wouldn't work otherwise.

I can assure you that the new passports can be read with the cover closed. Not only can they be read, but they are not encrypted and can be easily re-written. Yes. I can change information on my passport on a whim.

If we can develop protection like TEMPEST, you would think they WOULD provide some sort of protection for our US passports.

10-23-2006, 08:43 PM	#31 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,656	Re: No-Swipe Credit Cards and You Professional hacker. With a white hat.

10-23-2006, 09:32 PM	#32 (permalink)
wildcat2000 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Pueblo, CO Age: 31 Posts: 518	Re: No-Swipe Credit Cards and You The black strip on the back of your credit cards or debit cards wear out too fast, that's why they are probably doing it. Only one of my cards has that new "Blink" technology, but many stores don't have the technology to use the no swipe credit card. The only one I noticed that has it is Walgreens. __________________

10-23-2006, 11:06 PM	#33 (permalink)
Wimpinator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: United states, TN Age: 35 Posts: 2,895	Re: No-Swipe Credit Cards and You A small reader is EASILY doable for under $100. If you want to go the simple route then an Arduino (www.arduino.cc) board can be had for $32. Parallax makes a prebuilt RFID reader module for $39 (www.parallax.com). Add afew passive bits for a couple of bucks and you can store 512 bytes of RFID data in the on-board EEPROM on the Arduino board. If you're greedy you can add more EEPROM for a couple of bucks. Add code and walk around with this thing gathering all of the RFID data around. (The data from the RFID reader came from Make magazine volume 6) __________________ \|TG-6th\|Wimpinator BF2 Rules and SOP's\|Teamspeak information\|TG on IRC

10-24-2006, 12:47 AM	#34 (permalink)
Hambergler Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Age: 33 Posts: 1,057	Re: No-Swipe Credit Cards and You 3 Questions. 1. Are these tags going to be put into every credit card? 2. I carry my credit cards and money in metal cigaret case. Will that protect me? 3.Can someone tell me what the hell is so wrong with swiping? I read a book called "No place to Hide" it was about what happens to all your personal information and how it gets baught and sold by big billion dollar companies like choicepoint and axium. Both of which have been hacked recently. It also talked about amazing and scary surveillance techniques. John Poindexter is developing a system where a camera can identify people by their walk, when it's too dark for face recognition. I think rfid tags are not just for products anymore. I think they are there to mass monitor people. And credit cards are an easy way to make most people carry them. Next there going to put them into money and clothing. Call me paranoid, but there is money to be made. http://www.amazon.com/No-Place-Hide-...e=UTF8&s=books

10-24-2006, 08:05 AM	#38 (permalink)
Turbo Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Age: 26 Posts: 3,935	Re: No-Swipe Credit Cards and You I was watching Good Morning America before work and they had an expert on talking about this. Pretty interesting. __________________

10-24-2006, 09:55 AM	#40 (permalink)
Acid Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: MA Posts: 3,581	Re: No-Swipe Credit Cards and You Yeah, I saw that on Good Morning America, but I couldn't tell who was speaking about it. They were talking about how it was a bad idea and how someone could walk through streets grabbing card numbers. __________________

10-24-2006, 11:25 PM	#41 (permalink)
Switchcraft Join Date: May 2003 Location: New York, NY Age: 30 Posts: 990	Re: No-Swipe Credit Cards and You My last black passport had an RFID chip in it. "They" explained to me that the cover had an RF-blocking technology built into it, so that it could not be read while shut. As far as I know, that's what the new civilian models all contain. My experience with TEMPEST stuff says that's possible, but a couple security experts I've heard talk about the issue say that's not a great idea, but did not elaborate. Any thoughts? To me, it wouldn't matter even if it did work, because that would just mean people would swipe your info while going through customs, instead of while in the bathroom. But I'd like to know why it wouldn't work otherwise.

10-25-2006, 02:32 AM	#43 (permalink)
xTYBALTx Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,830	Re: No-Swipe Credit Cards and You Would it be possible to use a tool, the bluetooth gun* comes to mind, and be able to read RFID chips at extrodinary ranges and through protection? The bluetooth gun was something I saw on the internet a few years ago. Something about being able to hack Blackberrys from a mile away if they used a focused antenna. __________________ Current good song: Justice - Stress "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."*

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