CNN shows insurgent video of GI being sniped - Page 2

Steeler · 10-24-2006, 12:14 PM

I think you're looking for a specific political response, but that's not how you opened the thread.

Quote:

It strikes me as an important moment in the history of the media's relationship with the armed forces, and the media's role in warfare.

As such, we've been talking about media matters. On a more visceral level, everyone knows who the bad guys are here. The footage does outrage, but we're not exactly sitting in a foxhole ready to jump out and start gunning for Charlie. I'm getting a little tired of the forumla: (disagree with me) = (rooting for the other side/not patriotic enough).

ABRA · 10-24-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

How is this different than showing a surgical strike against an insurgent base?

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

I think that if a similar video were made by a US army sniper team and they shopped it around the television stations, we would not be discussing how it helps the electorate make informed decisions.

I think my viewpoint is unaffected by which side of the conflict the cameraman is shooting from. I'm not sure what exactly you're implying about how this would be different if it portrayed American offensive actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

That's what I mean by patriotism. We may disagree, but when someone shoots a soldier, we unite.

Do you think that before America was as divided over who are enemies are and how we should fight them as they are today? And when we were united then, do you think it was more because we were already in mostly common agreement or because we disagreed as strongly as today but made more of an effort to unite? I think America had a more common outlook then and had less uniting to do as it was already pretty united. Now we are so divided that to unite would be simply to bite our tongues and cease to participate in our government.

American government is easy in times of peace and plenty. It is times of war that our participatory system is put to the test. I think instead of seeking to skip the test and suspend our dissent and participation in the process, we need to participate more attentively than ever before to ensure we pass it.

**leejo** · 10-24-2006, 12:21 PM

That's not what I said. I may think you're being silly, or are simply wrong, but I don't think you're rooting for the other side. Just as you may think I'm stupid, or ignorant, or "afraid" or "turrists".

My point in starting the thread was to consider media. Several posts that justified this video as being helpful to ensure an informed electorate shifted my focus. There are plenty of ways to show what a sniper bullet does to a soldier's body without entering into arrangements with insurgents to provide snuff films.

They didn't even block out the insurgent's logo. Wanna bet that was part of the deal?

**leejo** · 10-24-2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABRA

Do you think that before America was as divided over who are enemies are and how we should fight them as they are today? And when we were united then, do you think it was more because we were already in mostly common agreement or because we disagreed as strongly as today but made more of an effort to unite? I think America had a more common outlook then and had less uniting to do as it was already pretty united. Now we are so divided that to unite would be simply to bite our tongues and cease to participate in our government.

American government is easy in times of peace and plenty. It is times of war that our participatory system is put to the test. I think instead of seeking to skip the test and suspend our dissent and participation in the process, we need to participate more attentively than ever before to ensure we pass it.

Honestly? I think we're living with that bunch of babies AKA "The Boomers" and the fact that they have never graduated from their adolescent need to "understand" all sides of an issue and to be liked.

I think that we will in fact unite again as before, but it's going to take an imminent existential threat, not just an inevitable one.

xTYBALTx · 10-24-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Twain

Against our traditions we are now entering upon an unjust and trivial war, a war against a helpless people, and for a base object — robbery. At first our citizens spoke out against this thing, by an impulse natural to their training. Today they have turned, and their voice is the other way. What caused the change? Merely a politician's trick — a high-sounding phrase, a blood-stirring phrase which turned their uncritical heads: Our Country, right or wrong! An empty phrase, a silly phrase. It was shouted by every newspaper, it was thundered from the pulpit, the Superintendent of Public Instruction placarded it in every schoolhouse in the land, the War Department inscribed it upon the flag. And every man who failed to shout it or who was silent, was proclaimed a traitor — none but those others were patriots. To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, "Our Country, right or wrong," and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation?

Editing... Give me a min. Okay, done:

When someone shoots an American soldier, I don't think any American doesn't want that person caught or killed. I don't understand who is saying otherwise.

However, on a political level, there is nothing wrong with saying that we should get our soldiers out of there and bring them home, where no one will shoot them. Sure, some of the people who were shooting at our soldiers will get away, but that's what makes it a difficult situation and that is precisely one of the issues which makes the 'what to do about our situation in Iraq' discussion controversial. You can disagree with the PON'ers all you want, there's nothing wrong with that (I myself am not a PON'er, as I have previously said), but to say that the PON'ers very position is unpatriotic is almost insulting.

ABRA · 10-24-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeler

The footage does outrage, but we're not exactly sitting in a foxhole ready to jump out and start gunning for Charlie.

I agree with this. In situations such as this I think the greatest support has already been given. Taxes have been paid, individuals inclined to further support the troops through various organizations and letter-writing are. But after that, I think the most we can do is evaluate and appreciate the relationship between the citizen and the professional soldier who is fighting at the greatest possible personal sacrifice. From that more people will be compelled to whatever actions they feel are appropriate. Some will buy ribbon magnets for their car, some donate money to organizations supporting wounded veterans and their families, some will enlist to remove that burden from others and take it upon themselves.

Others when seeing this will not deem such a great personal sacrifice as something they want to ask of their countrymen, their neighbors. They will act to try to place those soldiers out of harm's way. If that means they want an end to hostilities, and an incomplete, vain campaign in Iraq then that is their will. And the America worth fighting and dying for is the America that heeds the will of all its citizens. Including those whose patriotism compels them to oppose the neighbors risking their lives on their behalf in Iraq.

Honestly unity is simultaneously a goal of a functioning democracy and likewise an indication of a unhealthy one in which some of the population's dissent is silenced. The unity in our enemies from one-party secular dictatorships like N. Korea and from one-party religious oligarchies like Iran is the very enemy of liberty we are fighting to abolish. Any unity we achieve likewise much be earned through good governance and not enforced through suppression of dissent.

**leejo** · 10-24-2006, 12:36 PM

So is it your position that this video informs the public better than all the news stories about killed and wounded? Faces of the Fallen? Etc.

Sorry about the political sidetrack. I have my opinions and others have theirs. But I don't accept or get this argument that videos like this are important. What does this accomplish? Is it important in your mind to counter videos that make the american military appear powerful? I don't get it.

**leejo** · 10-24-2006, 12:42 PM

Imagine the Washington snipers. Imagine if they had had a political message - stop abortion or we'll keep doing this. Imagine that they had made videos of their murders and had forwarded them to television stations to run.

Do you imagine any would have shown these videos? If they had would you defend their airing as important to understand the issues surrounding abortion?

Rick_the_new_guy · 10-24-2006, 12:50 PM

although I am of the Pepsi or MTV generation (1979) I cannot speak for the baby boomers. However, I do know that their generation went through the Vietnam nightmare. I believe they came of age farily quickly.

Like Grunt I grow tired of the same forumla: (disagree with me) = (rooting for the other side/not patriotic enough).

xTYBALTx · 10-24-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

So is it your position that this video informs the public better than all the news stories about killed and wounded? Faces of the Fallen? Etc.

I don't believe Abra or anyone else would say the sniper video should take the place of those news stories.

SmokingTarpan · 10-24-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

IMO a video of a soldier's death should outrage, not inform.

The video pisses me off. However, I see little difference between this video and the daily pictures of blown up vehicles or bodies under blood-soaked cloths in the street. If you have a problem with one, you should have a problem with the other. And if you want to blind the public from what's actually happening then, in my opinion, that's the fastest way for the enemy to show up at your door and take over a populace that doesn't have a clue.

Quote:

That's what I mean by patriotism. We may disagree, but when someone shoots a soldier, we unite. That's gone.

I am united with my countrymen (well, not the crazy funeral crashers) with respect to wanting our soldiers safe and sound. However, I don't believe this is a worthwhile conflict that is protecting the country or will save the lives of Americans. If you think that seeing a soldier being shot is going to suddenly make me throw out my beliefs, stand up and scream, "Hot damn, let's get 'em boys!" you are beyond even dreaming.

Would you suggest that we support any conflict simply if an American soldier perishes in it? What if we invaded Italy because we wanted more olives? It's a cartoonish thought, true, but I'm interested in seeing how far your support extends.

xTYBALTx · 10-24-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Imagine the Washington snipers. Imagine if they had had a political message - stop abortion or we'll keep doing this. Imagine that they had made videos of their murders and had forwarded them to television stations to run.

Do you imagine any would have shown these videos? If they had would you defend their airing as important to understand the issues surrounding abortion?

Well, leejo, do you believe that watching that video would further the public's knowledge about abortion? I don't think that it really would. I certainly would not have a problem with them airing such a video, and would consider it important to understand the issues surrounding political violence, not abortion.

Does the Iraq sniper video further the public's knowledge of the ongoing violence in Iraq? Without question.

xTYBALTx · 10-24-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

What if we invaded Italy because we wanted more olives? It's a cartoonish thought, true, but I'm interested in seeing how far your support extends.

Is invading Mexico to protect the interests of slave-holding American expatriates cartoonish? Because my buddy Mark Twain had something to say about that one ;]

Rick_the_new_guy · 10-24-2006, 01:03 PM

This remidns me of the movie The Matrix. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133093/quotes

As you know Cypher, chose to be ignorant of reality.

He choose to become plugged back into the machine.

"Ignorance is bliss."

I am not referring to anyone in the forum because you guys have an interest in this, but the vast majority of the American population is plugged into the machine and do not want to see or hear about this stuff. Why? many do not want to care and they do not see how it will affect them.
40 plus hour work week. Huge bills. Medical issues with themselves and family. Stressed. The last thing they won't to do is focus on the horrors of war.

Like Morphous says, the truth will set you free.

The more I think about it the more surprised CNN would show this because it get people's attetion on the reality of what is going. Yes, I put CNN as part of the machine.

Like I said, I just hope the footage shows respect for the fallen American soilder.

I feel you leejo. Frustration with the American people. It is just we see things differntly.

ABRA · 10-24-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

So is it your position that this video informs the public better than all the news stories about killed and wounded? Faces of the Fallen? Etc.

Sorry about the political sidetrack. I have my opinions and others have theirs. But I don't accept or get this argument that videos like this are important. What does this accomplish? Is it important in your mind to counter videos that make the american military appear powerful? I don't get it.

I think that the news story inform the public in many obvious ways. Just like I think such videos inform them in other ways. I don't mean to dodge your comparison but I really believe both are effective in their own ways. I could show someone a definition for lightning, maybe a newspaper article on a storm's damage. How much do you think the appreciation for that storm would be if I showed a video of the storm in the night sky? With this type of sniper video it is the same, except 99% of people are only reading the article and few have ever seen or heard a thunder storm.

I am unfamiliar with this Faces of the Fallen reference. I've been living on a ship for the past 5 months or so.

What does it accomplish is a much better question with no simple lightning analogies. It is not in the interest of balanced reporting and countering similar American videos that I advocate the distribution of these videos. Frankly I don't see why videos of the situation in Iraq, no matter what they depict would be more or less important. I mean aside from obvious differences in the kind of content (like these combat videos as opposed to more mundane things), any video, showing a casualty on either side would be illustrative as to the situation. Any video that has been verified to be what it appears to be is then a valid chose for a journalist to air if it is news I'd think. I mean if it is what it appears to be, you'd have to have a pretty good reason NOT to air something newsworthy.

I don't think anyone would conclude from that isolated incident of an American serviceman being struck down that we are losing the war. And in any even if such effects are considered, it would be for propaganda purposes. But to be considered inaccurately biased enough to be propaganda it would not have met journalistic standards of fact-checking (like the incidents in the Israeli conflict in which civilian bodies are staged at air strike targets, smoke plumes are photoshopped into skylines after shelling, etc.).

10-24-2006, 12:21 PM	#18 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,524	Re: CNN shows insurgent video of GI being sniped That's not what I said. I may think you're being silly, or are simply wrong, but I don't think you're rooting for the other side. Just as you may think I'm stupid, or ignorant, or "afraid" or "turrists". My point in starting the thread was to consider media. Several posts that justified this video as being helpful to ensure an informed electorate shifted my focus. There are plenty of ways to show what a sniper bullet does to a soldier's body without entering into arrangements with insurgents to provide snuff films. They didn't even block out the insurgent's logo. Wanna bet that was part of the deal?

10-24-2006, 12:36 PM	#22 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,524	Re: CNN shows insurgent video of GI being sniped So is it your position that this video informs the public better than all the news stories about killed and wounded? Faces of the Fallen? Etc. Sorry about the political sidetrack. I have my opinions and others have theirs. But I don't accept or get this argument that videos like this are important. What does this accomplish? Is it important in your mind to counter videos that make the american military appear powerful? I don't get it.

10-24-2006, 12:42 PM	#23 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,524	Re: CNN shows insurgent video of GI being sniped Imagine the Washington snipers. Imagine if they had had a political message - stop abortion or we'll keep doing this. Imagine that they had made videos of their murders and had forwarded them to television stations to run. Do you imagine any would have shown these videos? If they had would you defend their airing as important to understand the issues surrounding abortion?

10-24-2006, 12:50 PM	#24 (permalink)
Rick_the_new_guy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 29 Posts: 1,789	Re: CNN shows insurgent video of GI being sniped although I am of the Pepsi or MTV generation (1979) I cannot speak for the baby boomers. However, I do know that their generation went through the Vietnam nightmare. I believe they came of age farily quickly. Like Grunt I grow tired of the same forumla: (disagree with me) = (rooting for the other side/not patriotic enough). __________________ (PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member (CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader (LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html

10-24-2006, 01:03 PM	#29 (permalink)
Rick_the_new_guy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 29 Posts: 1,789	Re: CNN shows insurgent video of GI being sniped This remidns me of the movie The Matrix. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133093/quotes As you know Cypher, chose to be ignorant of reality. He choose to become plugged back into the machine. "Ignorance is bliss." I am not referring to anyone in the forum because you guys have an interest in this, but the vast majority of the American population is plugged into the machine and do not want to see or hear about this stuff. Why? many do not want to care and they do not see how it will affect them. 40 plus hour work week. Huge bills. Medical issues with themselves and family. Stressed. The last thing they won't to do is focus on the horrors of war. Like Morphous says, the truth will set you free. The more I think about it the more surprised CNN would show this because it get people's attetion on the reality of what is going. Yes, I put CNN as part of the machine. Like I said, I just hope the footage shows respect for the fallen American soilder. I feel you leejo. Frustration with the American people. It is just we see things differntly. __________________ (PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member (CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader (LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html

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