Help us John Kerry! - Page 3

**leejo** · 11-01-2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

As a combat veteran, I want to make it clear to anyone in uniform and to their loved ones: my poorly stated joke at a rally was not about, and never intended to refer to any troop.

I sincerely regret that my words were misinterpreted to wrongly imply anything negative about those in uniform, and I personally apologize to any service member, family member, or American who was offended.

It is clear the Republican Party would rather talk about anything but their failed security policy. I don’t want my verbal slip to be a diversion from the real issues. I will continue to fight for a change of course to provide real security for our country, and a winning strategy for our troops.

(with a dash of phase 1).

And all is well again, and all is forgiven.

**Switchcraft** · 11-01-2006, 04:49 PM

With any other politician, I would have been surprised that it took that long. With him, I'm mildy curious as to what he was told that made him come around and say make a personal apology.

AMosely · 11-01-2006, 04:52 PM

The GOP needs to stop trying to skewer Democrats as anti-troops. They're only embarassing themselves. This has been going on since the war started - it's what's behind the 'with us or against us' campaign - the 'support the troops' ribbons and every debate about patriotism in this new century. Lately it's become 'Do you want America to win the war or not?' - a question echoed practically simultaneously by both Lynn Cheney and Bill O'Reilley in recent days. It's false, it's all political, and I am hoping that the upcoming election results will prove that it does not work.

Edit addition - the best way to support the troops is to excercise respect, caution and more input from military officials when considering putting the troops in harm's way in the first place.

**Switchcraft** · 11-01-2006, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMosely

They're only embarassing themselves. This has been going on since the war started - it's what's behind the 'with us or against us' campaign - the 'support the troops' ribbons and every debate about patriotism in this new century.

Sorry if the "support the troops" ribbons offend you, but I don't think anyone should be "embarrassed" by them. Not even you.

As far as the "debate about patriotism," I only ever hear about that coming from Democrats. Steeler's "straw man" graphic belongs after every statement like that, I think.

As far as "with us or against us," that comment was made November 6, 2001, and directed at OTHER NATIONS in regards to a fight against a terror network that operates in more than 60 countries. There is no neutrality in a conflict like that. If you think there should be, obviously that's your right, but if your argument is that other countries should be able to support the people who killed our citizens with no consequences, then maybe somebody should be questioning your patriotism.

The whole point of that comment, and the longer speech made that day on the subject, was that we were going to do everything we could to dismantle al Qaeda, and other networks like it, no matter where they were located.

It wasn't even 2 months after September 11th, we had 3,000 citizens dead, anthrax in the mail system, and the President told people if they weren't part of the solution, the were part of the problem. If you can tell me how you think there is a middle ground on the September 11th attacks, I'd love to hear it. Because the way I see it, that was wrong. And our enemies thought it was righteous. And I'd love to hear what you think the neutral part is that our President should have allowed for.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2006, 08:38 PM

Nobody has really asked how far off the mark Kerry's remark was.

Do education levels determine the likelihood of being in the military and thus going to Iraq?

I have always assumed they did. I know that my minimal education, and lack of money, defiantly had a large influence on my joining the military. The recruiters I have known admittedly target low income areas. Those areas often have lower education levels among the residents.

Not defending Kerry, what he said was stupid considering that it is election season.

But I, as a veteran, was not offended. In fact I am offended more by those who did not serve, or pretended to serve, acting so indignant.

McCain's response I accept. I don't agree with it but I respect his opinion.

**Switchcraft** · 11-01-2006, 09:38 PM

Well, one study I saw recently (via Instapundit) is discussed here. While I have no doubt that whoever conducted the study has a bias, the statistical data fits in with my personal experiences.

Choice quotes:

Quote:

Our review of Pentagon enlistee data shows that the only group that is lowering its participation in the military is the poor. The percentage of recruits from the poorest American neighborhoods (with one-fifth of the U.S. population) declined from 18 percent in 1999 to 14.6 percent in 2003, 14.1 percent in 2004, and 13.7 percent in 2005. . . .

In summary, the additional years of recruit data (2004–2005) support the previous finding that U.S. military recruits are more similar than dissimilar to the American youth population. The slight differences are that wartime U.S. military enlistees are better educated, wealthier, and more rural on average than their civilian peers.

Recruits have a higher percentage of high school graduates and representation from Southern and rural areas. No evidence indicates exploitation of racial minorities (either by race or by race-weighted ZIP code areas). Finally, the distribution of household income of recruits is noticeably higher than that of the entire youth population.

And alright, so that discusses income and high school diplomas. If you want to get commissioned, you have to get at least a 4-year degree. If you're going to stay in the officer corps, with few exceptions, you must always continue your education. You'll find more advanced degrees at the Pentagon than any other institution on the planet, I'd wager.

Regardless, if Kerry meant to say that the decision to go to Iraq was an act of intellectual laziness, is the fact that he voted for it an argument for or against its "truthiness?"

**leejo** · 11-01-2006, 10:05 PM

I haven't served but when I realized that we were probably going into Iraq, in early 2002, I took approximately 80 hours off from work in order to hang out in MEPS and at Ft. Sam Houston in an effort to enlist as a 33 year old college educated 11-B because that's where I wanted to be. I knew kids were going to die and I felt that I couldn't support the war effort, be of eligible age, and just sit on my ass.

My application was eventually denied by the battalion Surgeon General because of an old back injury and because they must have figured I was nuts.

Am I a chicken hawk? Does this give me the right to insist that our soldiers be treated with the utmost respect? You decide.

I understand that, relative to our general population, our military are better educated. I can't find a link right now but I'm certain that is the case. Yes, it's a fact that I met some kids in San Antonio who were most certainly not going to get the MOS they were seeking - medic, Special Ops. As a matter of fact, while I was going through the enlistment process I witnessed my recruiter working hard to provide an opportunity for a very bright but poorly educated kid who had grown up basically sleeping on people's sofas - never knew his dad and his mom was a shambles. In fact I chipped in a few hundo to help that kid with some logistical challenges, and last I saw he was on his way into the Army as a 96B with a top secret clearance. Being in the Army will change his life.

So, personally, I hear Senator Kerry's words and I think about that kid, and the others I met at MEPS, and yes I am really offended that anyone would say anything bad about them.

So not to draw too many lines between Mark Foley and John Kerry, but it seems to me that the assertion that only vets have the right to insist that current soldiers not be insulted is a bit like insisting that only corn-holed adolescent boys have the right to object to Mark Foley. In other words, it boggles comprehension: Of course any citizen can appreciate our soldiers and take offense when they are disrespected. Even get indignant when the disrespect isn't followed with an apology.

Rick_the_new_guy · 11-01-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

ah ok... thanks...

Kerry should just use youtube comments to handle damage control:

"Kerry was refering to how Pres. Bush didn't make enough of his education, and as a result we are now in Iraq. He is NOT belittling troops, he IS belittling the president."

Interesting Dude. I never thought of it that way... are you sure this is what he meet. Because if so, Slick Willy Clinton would need to salute him for that.

When first watching the footage it reminded me of a bad jab comment that would be made in the 1968 and 1972 presidential elections.
Meaning, how much of the ((drafted))warriors who fought in the Nam conflict were from the lower class and did not recieve the same excemptions as more prevliaged persons (in college).

Even back then, this would have been a bad comment and worthy of a apology.

Today, with the Military being all volunteer (some chose this rather than jail i think) the U.S. military is most likely the most educated it has ever been.

Therefore, this was such a bad mistake, he should have instintly backed up and apoligized.

Like leejo said, he is the gift that keeps on giving. Man he sucked in 2004 election.

I hate to play politics, but the only good thing about Kerry not winning is that now Iraq can't be blamed on him if it does fail. Granted the GOP machine will use this and say he was imboding the tangos by trying to retard America's fighting spirit, you know, the whole "If the Democrates win the tangos win and America Loseses." deal.

I believe AMosely posts reflect my frame of mind only his are spelled correctly.

In conclusion Halloween Havoc continues (Think WCW). The Dem's last presidential guy slipt in the mud when trying to be cute in the ring. He deserves to get DDTd.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2006, 10:49 PM

Leejo.

I didn't hear anything bad being said. Really, I didn't. I have heard officers say things much more degrading about the enlisted. Us nukes made fun of just about everybody else in the service. (Because they could beat us up but we where smarter than they.) And the pilots? God, they considered every other human being as beneath them.

Most of the guys I knew came from... (remember, we where nukes so we where smarter than most)

1. College dropouts. Parents refused to support the looser any longer until they did something respectable.
2. Wide-eyed rural boys. Idealistic but ignorant. (That was me.) Quickly learned that idealism should be balanced by a bit of education.
3. General trouble makers. The military being their last hope for salvation.
3. Long timers. Those freaks where born to be in the Navy. They deserve nothing but mocking and are probably gay anyway.

But seriously. Most of them are kids. How politically aware where you at the age of 19-20? They are the same. Yes the long timers are probably pissed, but who cares, they are freaks.

**CingularDuality** · 11-01-2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekyE

Isnt being insulted by "stuck in iraq" kinda over-sensitive? Maybe Im just insensitive. I mean is there a soldier over there who REALLY wants to be there (duty notwithstanding) and wouldnt be happy if it was over and they could come home?

I'm not sure if you're missing it or if I'm just not reading your post correctly. The insult was when Senator Kerry basically said that if you're dumb, you'll end up in the military. The Senator is now claiming that he was referring to the President and not the troops when he said "stuck in Iraq". I'm not buying it... The words he chose and the context of his speech all point to him talking about the military as a career choice (or lack of choice due to lack of education).

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

I didn't hear anything bad being said. Really, I didn't. I have heard officers say things much more degrading about the enlisted. Us nukes made fun of just about everybody else in the service. (Because they could beat us up but we where smarter than they.) And the pilots? God, they considered every other human being as beneath them.

I can say things about my mom that I'd punch you in the nose for saying. Same concept applies here. If Senator Kerry had said the same thing in private to a bunch of Generals, it would be completely different than saying it to a bunch of kids in the middle of a campaign speech.

Looking at the bigger picture, though, this means that Senator Clinton will be the Dem's candidate in 2008. I wonder if Senator Kerry can even get reelected after this?

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2006, 11:14 PM

Cingular

Then you shouldn't be saying those things about your mom, should you? Bad boy. Have you no respect? Somebody should take you out behind the shed.

And those officers shouldn't have been saying those things in earshot of a enlisted person. But ****e happens. Get over it. At least he officers where in the same boat (literally) as I.

As to Hillary. I don't know. Last sunday Barack Obama admitted he was thinking about running.

That would be interesting.

Kerostasis · 11-01-2006, 11:21 PM

Unfortunately, I just can't see someone with a name like "Barack Obama" getting elected President in this day and age. Nothing against him personally, and I'm not recommending that people vote solely on his name, but you know some people will.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2006, 11:26 PM

Oh you are right. But listening to him speak on the sunday shows... Man, just having him as a real contender in the race would be nice. I don't hear the spin from him I hear from all the others.

Just imagine. Obama vs McCain.

It just makes me giddy with the thought!!

**Switchcraft** · 11-01-2006, 11:29 PM

I really don't think McCain will end up being the GOP nominee. People will remember how McCain-Feingold robbed them of their 1st Amendment rights and punish him for it, I think.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-01-2006, 11:32 PM

Do people really think that of McCain.

How did he rob them? This is something I missed.

Is this a "GOP powerful" viewpoint or a viewpoint held by the general public?

11-01-2006, 04:49 PM	#32 (permalink)
Switchcraft Join Date: May 2003 Location: New York, NY Age: 30 Posts: 859	Re: Help us John Kerry! With any other politician, I would have been surprised that it took that long. With him, I'm mildy curious as to what he was told that made him come around and say make a personal apology.

11-01-2006, 04:52 PM	#33 (permalink)
AMosely Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maine Age: 33 Posts: 2,514	Re: Help us John Kerry! The GOP needs to stop trying to skewer Democrats as anti-troops. They're only embarassing themselves. This has been going on since the war started - it's what's behind the 'with us or against us' campaign - the 'support the troops' ribbons and every debate about patriotism in this new century. Lately it's become 'Do you want America to win the war or not?' - a question echoed practically simultaneously by both Lynn Cheney and Bill O'Reilley in recent days. It's false, it's all political, and I am hoping that the upcoming election results will prove that it does not work. Edit addition - the best way to support the troops is to excercise respect, caution and more input from military officials when considering putting the troops in harm's way in the first place.

11-01-2006, 08:38 PM	#35 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,288	Re: Help us John Kerry! Nobody has really asked how far off the mark Kerry's remark was. Do education levels determine the likelihood of being in the military and thus going to Iraq? I have always assumed they did. I know that my minimal education, and lack of money, defiantly had a large influence on my joining the military. The recruiters I have known admittedly target low income areas. Those areas often have lower education levels among the residents. Not defending Kerry, what he said was stupid considering that it is election season. But I, as a veteran, was not offended. In fact I am offended more by those who did not serve, or pretended to serve, acting so indignant. McCain's response I accept. I don't agree with it but I respect his opinion. __________________ Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08 --- I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

11-01-2006, 10:05 PM	#37 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,513	Re: Help us John Kerry! I haven't served but when I realized that we were probably going into Iraq, in early 2002, I took approximately 80 hours off from work in order to hang out in MEPS and at Ft. Sam Houston in an effort to enlist as a 33 year old college educated 11-B because that's where I wanted to be. I knew kids were going to die and I felt that I couldn't support the war effort, be of eligible age, and just sit on my ass. My application was eventually denied by the battalion Surgeon General because of an old back injury and because they must have figured I was nuts. Am I a chicken hawk? Does this give me the right to insist that our soldiers be treated with the utmost respect? You decide. I understand that, relative to our general population, our military are better educated. I can't find a link right now but I'm certain that is the case. Yes, it's a fact that I met some kids in San Antonio who were most certainly not going to get the MOS they were seeking - medic, Special Ops. As a matter of fact, while I was going through the enlistment process I witnessed my recruiter working hard to provide an opportunity for a very bright but poorly educated kid who had grown up basically sleeping on people's sofas - never knew his dad and his mom was a shambles. In fact I chipped in a few hundo to help that kid with some logistical challenges, and last I saw he was on his way into the Army as a 96B with a top secret clearance. Being in the Army will change his life. So, personally, I hear Senator Kerry's words and I think about that kid, and the others I met at MEPS, and yes I am really offended that anyone would say anything bad about them. So not to draw too many lines between Mark Foley and John Kerry, but it seems to me that the assertion that only vets have the right to insist that current soldiers not be insulted is a bit like insisting that only corn-holed adolescent boys have the right to object to Mark Foley. In other words, it boggles comprehension: Of course any citizen can appreciate our soldiers and take offense when they are disrespected. Even get indignant when the disrespect isn't followed with an apology.

11-01-2006, 10:49 PM	#39 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,288	Re: Help us John Kerry! Leejo. I didn't hear anything bad being said. Really, I didn't. I have heard officers say things much more degrading about the enlisted. Us nukes made fun of just about everybody else in the service. (Because they could beat us up but we where smarter than they.) And the pilots? God, they considered every other human being as beneath them. Most of the guys I knew came from... (remember, we where nukes so we where smarter than most) 1. College dropouts. Parents refused to support the looser any longer until they did something respectable. 2. Wide-eyed rural boys. Idealistic but ignorant. (That was me.) Quickly learned that idealism should be balanced by a bit of education. 3. General trouble makers. The military being their last hope for salvation. 3. Long timers. Those freaks where born to be in the Navy. They deserve nothing but mocking and are probably gay anyway. But seriously. Most of them are kids. How politically aware where you at the age of 19-20? They are the same. Yes the long timers are probably pissed, but who cares, they are freaks. __________________ Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08 --- I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

11-01-2006, 11:14 PM	#41 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,288	Re: Help us John Kerry! Cingular Then you shouldn't be saying those things about your mom, should you? Bad boy. Have you no respect? Somebody should take you out behind the shed. And those officers shouldn't have been saying those things in earshot of a enlisted person. But **e happens. Get over it. At least he officers where in the same boat (literally) as I. As to Hillary. I don't know. Last sunday Barack Obama admitted he was thinking about running. That would be interesting. __________________ Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08 --- I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette**

11-01-2006, 11:26 PM	#43 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,288	Re: Help us John Kerry! Oh you are right. But listening to him speak on the sunday shows... Man, just having him as a real contender in the race would be nice. I don't hear the spin from him I hear from all the others. Just imagine. Obama vs McCain. It just makes me giddy with the thought!! __________________ Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08 --- I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

11-01-2006, 11:29 PM	#44 (permalink)
Switchcraft Join Date: May 2003 Location: New York, NY Age: 30 Posts: 859	Re: Help us John Kerry! I really don't think McCain will end up being the GOP nominee. People will remember how McCain-Feingold robbed them of their 1st Amendment rights and punish him for it, I think.

11-01-2006, 11:32 PM	#45 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,288	Re: Help us John Kerry! Do people really think that of McCain. How did he rob them? This is something I missed. Is this a "GOP powerful" viewpoint or a viewpoint held by the general public? __________________ Sen. John McCain (AZ) For President '08 --- I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

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