Help us John Kerry! - Page 5

Beatnik · 11-02-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

Could you post a link to the full transcript that you read, please? The one you were talking about in the post where you said you couldn't find full video.

The Daily Show did a segment on it last night. The transcript of the original prepared text (which also wasn't funny, but was directed at Bush and not the troops) is at about 1:15.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO1zGW5PSwQ

EDIT: Linkage corrected.

**leejo** · 11-02-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatnik

The Daily Show did a segment on it last night. The transcript of the original prepared text (which also wasn't funny, but was directed at Bush and not the troops) is at about 1:15.

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/sandbox...tml#post589925

Bad link, esse.

Excellent link, rather, but not the one I think you meant. And shame on you! Aren't you supposed to be staying out of the catbox for a few days?

**Switchcraft** · 11-02-2006, 02:36 PM

I'm not really looking for "a" transcript, I want to know what transcript Book was citing. He made an entrie post about how nobody who was talking about the issue during the day does any research, and I wanted him to cite his sources. He says the full transcript of what was said (not the video, which he couldn't find) put everything in context and made it obvious. Kerry's website hadn't posted the full transcript, and had only released what they claim he was supposed to have said, which is not what Book was referring to.

He said "the full transcript of what Kerry said." I want to see the one he was referring to at the time.

**leejo** · 11-02-2006, 02:36 PM

OK. I think Switchcraft is looking for a transcript of the speech that was written and distributed BEFORE the speech, as opposed to the explanation that got cooked up after the genie got out of the bottle.

Edit: what he said.

Private Book · 11-02-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

It has to do with the sad fact that you choose to spend a lot of your time telling us why we shouldn't bother with the Heritage Institute's opinions or studies instead of simply explaining what a better source may be. You are still looking silly because you insist that the Heritage numbers are junk when they are in fact more conservative than the military's own. This is explained by the fact that Heritage's numbers are for recruits and the military's are for their entire population. I would bet you a lot that the average recruit is younger and less well educated than the average soldier, who is likely older and has accomplished more in life with that extra time.

If you return to JMJ's site and browse to the section on education and click the click to view table link in the big graphic immediately below that section, you will see this:

So there's your 82.7% (round 82.66 up .04% points), etc. They cite their sources so any enterprising person could prove them wrong instead of taking intellectually lazy cheap shots.

With regard to your question about why Heritage isn't breaking down their numbers by rank, I think that's obvious: that's not their point.

Their study is an effort to determine if the stories are true or not. So they aggregate officers and enlisted men who joined the service in 2004 to determine if the average recruit's education is going down, or is lower than the US population at large. They even take the extra, and intellectually honest, step of eliminating prior-service recruits - those old farts who decide to re-up and get in the fight. Their education levels are ALWAYS higher than the average because the military doesn't take those older types unless they are well-qualified.

So again, do you have a point other than we shouldn't pay attention to Heritage?

Uh.. look again at those numbers ok? First I just explained that the way they are derived is fixed, Second, just take a moment to think about what the numbers say. 80-90% of the military have a high school equivalency. but presenting it that way ignores the fact that what looks like 80% ONLY have a high school diploma. (By the way, in 1999 98% of the military had a high school equivalency.) Yet 46% of the general population has HIGHER then a high school diploma AND a high a school diploma. See how that works? While the military only has what looks to be 9% HIGHER then a high school diploma. The either/or conclusion that more high school diplomas equals better educated is FIXED TO FIT THEIR CONCLUSION.

Let me try to say it a couple ways so you see what I mean. if two groups of people all have high school diplomas but three people in one of the groups have high school diplomas AND Bachelor degrees, that group is better educated.

because each level of education requires mastery of the previous just claiming a higher percentage of high school equivalencies is false from the outset.

Education isnt a one or the other proposition. High school equivalency is the first rung on that ladder. having JUST a high school equivalency shouldnt even appear on this chart. The entire argument is rigged..

Now just think for a second. the military is a small fixed population usually recruited from high schools and high school age. the vast majority of that smaller population has ONLY a high school diploma. while 46% of the general population has a high school equivalency AND some college. Do you see how they are cooking the books and fixing their solution yet? <b> Again, I am not arguing the false suggestion the military is less educated. They are equally well educated. </b>I am trying to show you what huge liars the heritage foundation is/are.

PS by the way this chart actually contradicts reality. How is it possible only 33% of the general pop have high school diplomas but 46% have higher education? is the heritage foundation trying to say that 13% of the population hopped into college from homeschool without getting a ged? I'm telling you, the Heritage foundation will fix numbers, fake statistics and outright lie to make their point.

Private Book · 11-02-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

I'm not really looking for "a" transcript, I want to know what transcript Book was citing. He made an entrie post about how nobody who was talking about the issue during the day does any research, and I wanted him to cite his sources. He says the full transcript of what was said (not the video, which he couldn't find) put everything in context and made it obvious. Kerry's website hadn't posted the full transcript, and had only released what they claim he was supposed to have said, which is not what Book was referring to.

He said "the full transcript of what Kerry said." I want to see the one he was referring to at the time.

that video is the transcript im talking about. Its the full video of the event including his statements previous and after and the bewildered reaction of the crowd. (warning, most boring campaign event ever) Nothings been changed or edited. Its his actual appearance when he said the thing that's got so many panties in a knot.

**leejo** · 11-02-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private Book

Uh.. look again at those numbers ok? First I just explained that the way they are derived is fixed, Second, just take a moment to think about what the numbers say. 80-90% of the military have a high school equivalency. but presenting it that way ignores the fact that what looks like 80% ONLY have a high school diploma. (By the way, in 1999 98% of the military had a high school equivalency.) Yet 46% of the general population has HIGHER then a high school diploma AND a high a school diploma. See how that works? While the military only has what looks to be 9% HIGHER then a high school diploma. The either/or conclusion that more high school diplomas equals better educated is FIXED TO FIT THEIR CONCLUSION.

Let me try to say it a couple ways so you see what I mean. if two groups of people all have high school diplomas but three people in one of the groups have high school diplomas AND Bachelor degrees, that group is better educated.

because each level of education requires mastery of the previous just claiming a higher percentage of high school equivalencies is false from the outset.

Education isnt a one or the other proposition. High school equivalency is the first rung on that ladder. having JUST a high school equivalency shouldnt even appear on this chart. The entire argument is rigged..

Now just think for a second. the military is a small fixed population usually recruited from high schools and high school age. the vast majority of that smaller population has ONLY a high school diploma. while 46% of the general population has a high school equivalency AND some college. Do you see how they are cooking the books and fixing their solution yet? Again, I am not arguing the false suggestion the military is less educated. They are equally well educated. I am trying to show you what huge liars the heritage foundation is/are.

Damn I really should have joined the Army because I have no idea what you're talking about. ME NO UNDERSTAND.

Beatnik · 11-02-2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

OK. I think Switchcraft is looking for a transcript of the speech that was written and distributed BEFORE the speech, as opposed to the explanation that got cooked up after the genie got out of the bottle.

Edit: what he said.

OK fellas. If you guys want to stick to your guns and believe that Kerry would deliberately and intentionally make a joke about how stupid our troops are, as opposed to the far more likely possibility that he misspoke one word in a joke directed at president bush after a series of jokes about Bush, feel free.

**leejo** · 11-02-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatnik

OK fellas. If you guys want to stick to your guns and believe that Kerry would deliberately and intentionally make a joke about how stupid our troops are, as opposed to the far more likely possibility that he misspoke one word in a joke directed at president bush after a series of jokes about Bush, feel free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerry '72

I am convinced a volunteer army would be an army of the poor and the black and the brown. We must not repeat the travesty of the inequities present during Vietnam. I also fear having a professional army that views the perpetuation of war crimes as simply 'doing its job.

Do you think he meant the well-educated poor and the black and the brown?

And how might the last little bit be misinterpreted or taken out of context? Was it a compliment?

My point is that his "joke" about the military is consistent with things he had written before. If someone can show me a copy of the speech that they received in advance of this "joke" explanation, I'll apologize faster than Limbaugh to MJF doing the robot. Otherwise I think he did mean to say exactly what he said and didn't anticipate the fallout. I think he made an off-the-cuff remark and failed to respond immediately and correctly, and so came up with the excuse that it was really a joke about 20 hours too late. If he had reponded immediately by saying he had misspoken, I'd be more inclined to cut him some slack. If I ever see that advanced copy of the speech and see where the joke was written correctly BEFORE he said it, I'll post a big fat mea cupla right here and you can make it your sig.

Private Book · 11-02-2006, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leejo

Damn I really should have joined the Army because I have no idea what you're talking about. ME NO UNDERSTAND.

wow, and here I thought you were serious about this. You totally got me.

**Switchcraft** · 11-02-2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatnik

OK fellas. If you guys want to stick to your guns and believe that Kerry would deliberately and intentionally make a joke about how stupid our troops are, as opposed to the far more likely possibility that he misspoke one word in a joke directed at president bush after a series of jokes about Bush, feel free.

I don't really care if he misspoke in this instance. He's apologized, kinda, and that's enough for me.

I do , though, wonder why people keep insisting that it's so unlikely Kerry would insult our troops, because whenever it's been politically expedient for him, he's done so over and over. If this was a mistake, fine, but why act like he would never do such a thing?

The white house, the GOP, the DNC, let them all play their games. The servicemen who have heard his other speeches are less likely to believe this was a mistake than they would be if McCain had said it.

Kerostasis · 11-02-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private Book

PS by the way this chart actually contradicts reality. How is it possible only 33% of the general pop have high school diplomas but 46% have higher education? is the heritage foundation trying to say that 13% of the population hopped into college from homeschool without getting a ged? I'm telling you, the Heritage foundation will fix numbers, fake statistics and outright lie to make their point.

You are completely misreading the chart. The "high school education" category isn't "all people with AT LEAST a high school education", its "people with a high school education, and nothing better". If you want total high school educated, you have to add that to the "college education" category...or you could just look at the bottom row where they did that for you and saved you the effort. See?

Total recruits with high school degree or better: 97%
Total population with high school degree or better: 79.8%

I think its telling that you blame your own phenomenal misreading of the chart on their tendancy to "outright lie to make a point".

**leejo** · 11-02-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

You are completely misreading the chart. The "high school education" category isn't "all people with AT LEAST a high school education", its "people with a high school education, and nothing better". If you want total high school educated, you have to add that to the "college education" category...or you could just look at the bottom row where they did that for you and saved you the effort. See?

Total recruits with high school degree or better: 97%
Total population with high school degree or better: 79.8%

I think its telling that you blame your own phenomenal misreading of the chart on their tendancy to "outright lie to make a point".

That's what I meant to say before I bungled the joke.

**CingularDuality** · 11-03-2006, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private Book

Uh.. look again at those numbers ok? First I just explained that the way they are derived is fixed, Second, just take a moment to think about what the numbers say. 80-90% of the military have a high school equivalency. but presenting it that way ignores the fact that what looks like 80% ONLY have a high school diploma. (By the way, in 1999 98% of the military had a high school equivalency.) Yet 46% of the general population has HIGHER then a high school diploma AND a high a school diploma. See how that works? While the military only has what looks to be 9% HIGHER then a high school diploma. The either/or conclusion that more high school diplomas equals better educated is FIXED TO FIT THEIR CONCLUSION.

Let me try to say it a couple ways so you see what I mean. if two groups of people all have high school diplomas but three people in one of the groups have high school diplomas AND Bachelor degrees, that group is better educated.

because each level of education requires mastery of the previous just claiming a higher percentage of high school equivalencies is false from the outset.

Education isnt a one or the other proposition. High school equivalency is the first rung on that ladder. having JUST a high school equivalency shouldnt even appear on this chart. The entire argument is rigged..

Now just think for a second. the military is a small fixed population usually recruited from high schools and high school age. the vast majority of that smaller population has ONLY a high school diploma. while 46% of the general population has a high school equivalency AND some college. Do you see how they are cooking the books and fixing their solution yet? <b> Again, I am not arguing the false suggestion the military is less educated. They are equally well educated. </b>I am trying to show you what huge liars the heritage foundation is/are.

PS by the way this chart actually contradicts reality. How is it possible only 33% of the general pop have high school diplomas but 46% have higher education? is the heritage foundation trying to say that 13% of the population hopped into college from homeschool without getting a ged? I'm telling you, the Heritage foundation will fix numbers, fake statistics and outright lie to make their point.

OK, I've read this several times and you're simply not making sense. Could you go over it and perhaps try to restate it a different way? Right now it looks to me like you're not reading the numbers correctly.

Oh, and a 'transcript' is generally a text, not a video. I would be interested in seeing a transcript of his speech, as I've heard his speech and am unable to see how anyone could say that the slight is being taken out of context.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-03-2006, 11:47 PM

There are three major problems with the study.

One, they use median income of the zip code. This MAY produce very bad results. Especially since they also state that recruts tend to be rural. Rural zip codes cover alot of ground.

Second is that they compare military to the general population. There are alot of reasons persons in the general population would not get a high school diploma. Medical and mental problems being a few things that come to mind.

Third is that income is not a very good measure of family education levels or socioeconomic standing. At the age of most entering the military the education levels of the parents would play just as large, if not larger, role of the education level of the recruit. What I mean by that is that a person with highly educated parents MAY be less likely to join the military.

Another problem is that a high school diploma (or equivalent) is usually required. I believe a waiver is needed for those without a diploma to enter military service. So the high percentage in that catagory is not at all suprising.

There is a GAO report that I browsed that basically says the employed public 18 and greater is better educated when it comes college and greater education. Of course nobody considers the education or training recieved while in the military.

So the report did fudge the graphs simply by choosing the numbers they compared.

I don't think it makes that much of a difference. And this report, as well as the GAO report I saw creates more questions than answers for me. But they are good starting points.

11-02-2006, 02:36 PM	#63 (permalink)
Switchcraft Join Date: May 2003 Location: New York, NY Age: 30 Posts: 1,002	Re: Help us John Kerry! I'm not really looking for "a" transcript, I want to know what transcript Book was citing. He made an entrie post about how nobody who was talking about the issue during the day does any research, and I wanted him to cite his sources. He says the full transcript of what was said (not the video, which he couldn't find) put everything in context and made it obvious. Kerry's website hadn't posted the full transcript, and had only released what they claim he was supposed to have said, which is not what Book was referring to. He said "the full transcript of what Kerry said." I want to see the one he was referring to at the time.

11-02-2006, 02:36 PM	#64 (permalink)
leejo Join Date: Sep 2003 Age: 39 Posts: 7,683	Re: Help us John Kerry! OK. I think Switchcraft is looking for a transcript of the speech that was written and distributed BEFORE the speech, as opposed to the explanation that got cooked up after the genie got out of the bottle. Edit: what he said.

11-03-2006, 11:47 PM	#75 (permalink)
El_Gringo_Grande Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: OKIE HOMY Age: 39 Posts: 2,545	Re: Help us John Kerry! There are three major problems with the study. One, they use median income of the zip code. This MAY produce very bad results. Especially since they also state that recruts tend to be rural. Rural zip codes cover alot of ground. Second is that they compare military to the general population. There are alot of reasons persons in the general population would not get a high school diploma. Medical and mental problems being a few things that come to mind. Third is that income is not a very good measure of family education levels or socioeconomic standing. At the age of most entering the military the education levels of the parents would play just as large, if not larger, role of the education level of the recruit. What I mean by that is that a person with highly educated parents MAY be less likely to join the military. Another problem is that a high school diploma (or equivalent) is usually required. I believe a waiver is needed for those without a diploma to enter military service. So the high percentage in that catagory is not at all suprising. There is a GAO report that I browsed that basically says the employed public 18 and greater is better educated when it comes college and greater education. Of course nobody considers the education or training recieved while in the military. So the report did fudge the graphs simply by choosing the numbers they compared. I don't think it makes that much of a difference. And this report, as well as the GAO report I saw creates more questions than answers for me. But they are good starting points. __________________ Sen. Barack Obama (IL) For President '08 --- I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host. - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette

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