CingularDuality

Interesting reactions:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...DF20045715.htm

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

TheFatKidDeath

Before we start slapping ourselves on the back, let's reach back in history if anybody really cares too. In many sad ways Rumsfeld and the US government are unindicted co-conspirator's with Saddam Hussein.


On Dec. 20, 1983, the Washington Post reported that Rumsfeld "visited Iraq in what U.S. officials said was an attempt to bolster the already improving U.S. relations with that country."

* Two days later, the New York Times cited a "senior American official" who "said that the United States remained ready to establish full diplomatic relations with Iraq and that it was up to the Iraqis."

* On March 29, 1984, the Times reported: "American diplomats pronounce themselves satisfied with relations between Iraq and the United States and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been restored in all but name." Washington had some goodies for Saddam's regime, the Times account noted, including "agricultural-commodity credits totaling $840 million." And while "no results of the talks have been announced" after the Rumsfeld visit to Baghdad three months earlier, "Western European diplomats assume that the United States now exchanges some intelligence on Iran with Iraq."

* A few months later, on July 17, 1984, a New York Times article with a Baghdad dateline sketchily filled in a bit more information, saying that the U.S. government "granted Iraq about $2 billion in commodity credits to buy food over the last two years." The story recalled that "Donald Rumsfeld, the former Middle East special envoy, held two private meetings with the Iraqi president here," and the dispatch mentioned in passing that "State Department human rights reports have been uniformly critical of the Iraqi President, contending that he ran a police state."

* Full diplomatic relations between Washington and Baghdad were restored 11 months after Rumsfeld's December 1983 visit with Saddam -- who went on to use poison gas later in the decade, actions which scarcely harmed relations with the Reagan administration.

* As the most senior U.S. official to visit Iraq in six years, Rumsfeld had served as Reagan's point man for warming relations with Saddam. In 1984, the administration engineered the sale to Baghdad of 45 ostensibly civilian-use Bell 214ST helicopters. Saddam's military found them quite useful for attacking Kurdish civilians with poison gas in 1988, according to U.S. intelligence sources. "In response to the gassing," journalist Jeremy Scahill has pointed out, "sweeping sanctions were unanimously passed by the U.S. Senate that would have denied Iraq access to most U.S. technology. The measure was killed by the White House."

Sadly, most Americans history does not go beyond last week. Oh well, who needs history anyway?

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|TG-9th| TheFatKidDeath
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leejo

GROAN

Kerostasis

Just to be perfectly clear, are you or are you not assigning joint blame for Saddam's thousands of brutal murders on the American Presidency?

Because I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that its our fault that there are murderers in the world, or our fault that the best murderers often reach positions of power.

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El_Gringo_Grande

That Smart guy. He should know that a fair trial really wan't possible if it was held in Iraq.

Saddam gave up his right to a fair trial years ago.

Fatkid. Yea, US administrations supported Saddam. They have probably supported people worse than him.

Even so, this is a very good thing.

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TheFatKidDeath

It's not what I think, it's what the historical evidence shows. Take for example:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/index.htm

Saddam Hussein was a murderer so much so that the Reagan Administration supported him right through his worst crimes. If you cannot see that hypocrisy I believe the Iraqi people can.

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icky

I find it is a useful tool for making ridiculous leaps and stretches to assign blame where it doesn't belong.

I'm so angry at the guy who invented the gun right now.

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thebleakaffinity

Yeah, let's go beat him up?

The truth of the matter is that history is a very intricate and complex thing, but that doesn't mean violent, oppressive dictators like Saddam are without blame for their crimes. Nor does that statement mean that people like Rumsfeld aren't also to blame for the mistakes they've made in the past.

Still, I'm a bleeding heart liberal who opposes capital punishment, so I don't agree that this is good news.

Steeler

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WhiskeySix

oh yeah right... you expect us to beleive that's not Rumsfeld's body-double??

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DudeMan

i agree with leejo... GROAN....

you cant please all of the people all of the time... this however is one pleased person.

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

TG_Bubba

I think that as he hangs let the families of the massacured walk by and have a piece of him. just my opinion.

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CingularDuality

Are you suggesting that if you and I go shooting together at a target range, and you loan me some ammo, and then, years later, I murder someone with the bullets you gave me, that you're a co-conspirator in the murder?

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

icky

Here's what bothers me in simplified form:
- people say pursue diplomatic options
- leaders try diplomacy, even with the most horrible dictators in the world
- diplomacy fails and the countries end up at war
- people complain about how the leaders used to be buddies with these horrible dictators

All other things aside, this is just silly.

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leejo

Right.