Foreign Visitors say it's tough to get a Visa to US - Page 2

**CingularDuality** · 11-24-2006, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

I don't follow. Someone shows up with the visa in their passport. You look at it to ensure that it's not fraudulent. You check to make sure that the person in the picture is the person standing in front of you. You check them against the watch lists. What else needs to be done? It's the job of those whom issue the visas to ensure that the recipient is in fact enrolled in school, married, or just visiting. Not the fellow checking your passport on arrival.

It doesn't work like that. The State Department can not check to ensure that the person applying for the visa is hasn't been denied admission to a school, hasn't caught her fiance cheating on her, or that the guy is planning on not only visiting his second cousin for an afternoon, but to stay in the United States forever. Security requires a face to face interview at the time of entry. Based on the things I've seen, I'm absolutely convinced that there's nothing else that is as secure as a good Immigration Inspector at a Port of Entry. A computer can't see a person sweating and stammering when he's lying about why he's visiting the United States. Do you think a diamond smuggler is going to be honest when filling out "purpose of visit" on your forms? What about the body carriers? The ones that are carrying drugs INSIDE their bodies. Right now, it's estimated that Immigration and Customs Inspectors catch about 90% of body carriers. Are you going to train a computer to see the feverish look, the nervousness, the anxiousness to leave, and the sickly look of nauseousness? Will your xray machine notice all of the rare, endangered finches that are stuffed inside toilet paper tubes and taped around that guy's legs? What about the folks that don't need a visa? How do you ensure that they're allowed to enter? People from countries that we've signed Visa Waiver agreements with are generally allowed to enter for tourism with just a PP. But what if they're also a citizen of some terrorist nation, but they're traveling on their UK PP? Is your computer going to catch that?

Identification via passport is a very small part of the inspection process.

xTYBALTx · 11-24-2006, 02:26 PM

I'm fully aware that the folks at our ports of entry increase security. The question is: is money spent there better spent elsewhere? By soaking up cash that could be better used on other projects, they are in the long run making us less secure.

It's a matter of knowing where to draw the line. Our border security has already gone miles past it and is now lost in the woods.

**CingularDuality** · 11-24-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

I'm fully aware that the folks at our ports of entry increase security. The question is: is money spent there better spent elsewhere? By soaking up cash that could be better used on other projects, they are in the long run making us less secure.

It's a matter of knowing where to draw the line. Our border security has already gone miles past it and is now lost in the woods.

That's what I'm saying. You can't spend enough money to equal the security provided by the Inspectors on our borders and in our airports. They've been doing their thing since long before the media cared about border security and they'll continue to do it until there's a feasible replacement for them. They're not making us less secure, they ARE our security. Without them, we'd be magnitudes of times more vulnerable, not just to terrorists, but to thousands and thousands of criminals that try to enter our country.

xTYBALTx · 11-24-2006, 03:12 PM

They sure did a great job keeping Muhammad Atta and his bros from entering. I guess they didn't sweat enough at the border. Oh, wait. Even if they had sweat profusely and been searched prodigously, they still would've made it through. Why? Because the inspectors didn't have the right information.

So rather than spending our time sweating out criminals (and innocents alike) at the border (many of whom may well sweat and be detained without humiliating questions at passport check), let's make sure that those inspectors have an accurate list of people not to let in.

**CingularDuality** · 11-25-2006, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

let's make sure that those inspectors have an accurate list of people not to let in.

Impossible.

Maus · 11-26-2006, 10:50 AM

I'm somewhat fortunate in that I'm from the UK, which is part of the Visa Waiver thingy whereby we just fill out a green form before we get to the Immigration desk at the entry point to the US (so, fill it out in the departure airport, on the plane, or at the arrival airport), and it's all good.

However, before I moved to the US I was dating an American, and almost every time I visited there'd be some problem with me getting in -- whether it was because the first couple of times I had long hair and a black leather trenchcoat*, or some other retarded reason they thought they needed to mess with me (connecting me to a polygraph, making me swear on the Bible** that I wouldn't look for work in the US). And while waiting in the Immigration area for my turn to explain why I was visiting my girlfriend, I saw a number of people (mostly looking arabian/indian/pakistani) getting turned away.

Although getting my immigration visa to actually move to the States and not merely visiting didn't involve US immigration people messing with me, they sure made me jump through hoops with paperwork and medical exams, and pretty much every form you submit has about a $200 dollar fee, sometimes more. I'm now almost completely finished with the process (two years after moving here), and am a "conditional" permanent resident. I have another year to go then I need to apply to have the condition released, and then I have to gear up for all the citizenship nonsense if I ever want to vote. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole process, from first visa application to citizenship, takes 7-10 years.

* because, of course, when I got rid of those two things I pretty much just breezed through immigration and customs, when I'd get stopped every time before.

** guess what, people, I ain't religious -- don't see how that commits me to anything. Make me sign something and it might work better.

**Chewy** · 11-26-2006, 01:34 PM

Don't blame the U.S. for the way immigration is handled. Blame the smacktard terrorists who ruined it for everyone... even us to a certain degree. It's not harsh, it's simply what has to be done to ensure our protection. I would hope that I couldn't just fly over to Russia and waltz right in and meet up with my terrorist homies and blowup the country. And if I could, that's scary. That's exactly what we don't want here.

Kerostasis · 11-26-2006, 10:14 PM

I'm not sure I'd say that.

Our immigration procedure has been a long, drawn-out beaurocratic nightmare since long before 9/11. Its part of the reason most immigrants to the US skip the paperwork and just hop the border illegally. We could really use a more reasonable procedure for legal immigrants that didn't make them wait close to a decade to finish, if we ever want to really solve our problems with illegal immigration.

But thats a tangent...

**CingularDuality** · 11-26-2006, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

I'm not sure I'd say that.

Our immigration procedure has been a long, drawn-out beaurocratic nightmare since long before 9/11. Its part of the reason most immigrants to the US skip the paperwork and just hop the border illegally.

It's a very small part of the reason... Even if the only thing you had to do to apply for an immigrant visa was fill out a one page form and a set of fingerprints, with the paperwork being processed in under a week, we'd still have millions of people trying to get in after being denied an immigrant visa.

Quote:

We could really use a more reasonable procedure for legal immigrants that didn't make them wait close to a decade to finish, if we ever want to really solve our problems with illegal immigration.

There's a backlog on some applications, but that's simply because more people are applying than are legally allowed to enter. We allow different numbers of people from each country to enter the USA for a reason. The United States simply cannot allow everyone to come here that wants to. The problem is not about procedure. The problem is that too many people want to come here!

xTYBALTx · 11-27-2006, 01:44 AM

While I was originally talking about the absurdity of our procedures for processing incoming visitors at ports of entry (US Citizens and foreigners alike), I'll join the immigration discussion with both feet as well.

Cing, while I don't want to put words into anyone's mouths, I believe that Kero might consider the low number of legal immigrants permitted to be a part of "the immigration problem." Only part, mind you. The beaurocratic nightmare is another considerable problem. Again, if this were about terrorists and criminals, we could simply check the people against 'the list.' People will use aliases and other tricks, especially the ones we don't want coming here, but I don't see how making the process more beaurocratic solves that.

**CingularDuality** · 11-27-2006, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

While I was originally talking about the absurdity of our procedures for processing incoming visitors at ports of entry (US Citizens and foreigners alike), I'll join the immigration discussion with both feet as well.

Cing, while I don't want to put words into anyone's mouths, I believe that Kero might consider the low number of legal immigrants permitted to be a part of "the immigration problem." Only part, mind you. The beaurocratic nightmare is another considerable problem. Again, if this were about terrorists and criminals, we could simply check the people against 'the list.' People will use aliases and other tricks, especially the ones we don't want coming here, but I don't see how making the process more beaurocratic solves that.

What list? Who is going to make the list and how is it going to be updated? Do you realize that there are still plenty of jails in the United States that are unable to run fingerprints on a national basis? That still have to MAIL fingerprints to the FBI for inclusion in the national database? With law enforcement technology lagging so far behind the private sector, how do you propose all this be done? I fear that you're seeing stuff on TV and thinking that's how it is in real life.

I'll say it again, there is no system that will be more accurate or more efficient than a trained inspector at the Port of Entry. Period.

Kittamaru · 11-27-2006, 10:31 AM

You want simple border security?

Look up the Metal Storm Area of Denial Weapons System.

240,000 Rounds Per Minute, automatic target aquisition, designation, and intervention.

Place a few hundred of these babies along the mexican border, add in cameras on all of them. Have a count of 1-4 down the line. Each set of guns, 1-4, is controlled by a sub station. Each gun has a camera on top that has FLIR (Foward Looking Infra-Red) and NightVision to allow for rapid target descrimination. Allow a loudspeaker to play a warning. Anyone caught trying to cross the boarder illegally (sp?)... well, let's just say they'll think twice before trying it again...

As for airports- security in airports in the US is a joke. My school choir took a trip to Italy. At the Philidelphia International, departing, we were barely given a second glance. At the terminals in Europe, they x-rayed our bags, eyeballed us vs our passports, and interviewed our chaperones and our choir director while our choir was being checked in. We were out of the AirFrance checkin in under 15 minutes (that's all like, 40 of us).

Departing, since we were already checked in and they remembered our group (our layover was a few hours) we didn't have to do more than a baggage scan + metal detectors. Our director was spoken to about airline safety, and that was that.

In Italy it was much the same. We unboarded the plane, checked in ourselves- passports at the ready- and grabbed our bags. Because of a single piece of lost luggage (which was accidentally left in London and had to be shipped to us) we weren't out of there for almost an hour. The check in process, however, only took like, 5 minutes.

Trip back was the same thru Europe.

We get back to the States and finish our trip back in Philidelphia International. We unload and go to check in... and it takes us almost TWO HOURS. The line was backed up to hades and back, they checked passports, luggage, collected our "items purchased abroad" forms, hand checked most of our peoples luggage... it was ludicrious! What the hell is a HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT IN A CHOIR going to bring back that's dangerous? (Though, all told, I had a bottle of wine with me- my dad likes using wine in some of his cooking).

BTW- this is without mentioning. The Philidelphia International airport has almost 50 check in terminals and at least 20 check out terminals. The AirFrance terminal has around 15 check in and 5 check out. I don't remember where we were in Italy, but it had FIVE check in and 2 check out. How is it the LARGEST airport with the MOST resorces was also the SLOWEST one we were at?

So, yeah, US Airport Security is a joke... most of the guys I saw there were Rent-A-Cops who didn't give 2 shakes of a rats tail who you were. Hell, half of em weren't even AMERICAN, and some didn't even seem to speak english! Figure that one out!

xTYBALTx · 11-27-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

What list? Who is going to make the list and how is it going to be updated? Do you realize that there are still plenty of jails in the United States that are unable to run fingerprints on a national basis? That still have to MAIL fingerprints to the FBI for inclusion in the national database? With law enforcement technology lagging so far behind the private sector, how do you propose all this be done? I fear that you're seeing stuff on TV and thinking that's how it is in real life.

I'll say it again, there is no system that will be more accurate or more efficient than a trained inspector at the Port of Entry. Period.

I don't watch TV.

So since we don't have a list, why would we care to know who's coming in at all? This is all total nonsense. You know very well that Interpol et al keeps lists of people. If not, then why was Cat Stevens denied entry to the US?

As I'm happy to see others have experienced as well, US border security has long since raced over the line and is now happily lost in the wilderness.

**El_Gringo_Grande** · 11-27-2006, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

It's a very small part of the reason... Even if the only thing you had to do to apply for an immigrant visa was fill out a one page form and a set of fingerprints, with the paperwork being processed in under a week, we'd still have millions of people trying to get in after being denied an immigrant visa.
There's a backlog on some applications, but that's simply because more people are applying than are legally allowed to enter. We allow different numbers of people from each country to enter the USA for a reason. The United States simply cannot allow everyone to come here that wants to. The problem is not about procedure. The problem is that too many people want to come here!

All this is based on the idea we have to limit immigration.

The current limits are ridiculous. Immigration is what is keeping our population growth strong. Without it we would be facing the same problem many European countries are, population shrinkage. And that is a bad thing to have.

Maus · 11-27-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

Without it we would be facing the same problem many European countries are, population shrinkage. And that is a bad thing to have.

Wait, what?

Why is a reduced population a bad thing? Enlighten me, please.

11-24-2006, 02:26 PM	#17 (permalink)
xTYBALTx Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,899	Re: Foreign Visitors say it's tough to get a Visa to US I'm fully aware that the folks at our ports of entry increase security. The question is: is money spent there better spent elsewhere? By soaking up cash that could be better used on other projects, they are in the long run making us less secure. It's a matter of knowing where to draw the line. Our border security has already gone miles past it and is now lost in the woods. __________________ Current good song: Justice - Stress "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

11-24-2006, 03:12 PM	#19 (permalink)
xTYBALTx Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,899	Re: Foreign Visitors say it's tough to get a Visa to US They sure did a great job keeping Muhammad Atta and his bros from entering. I guess they didn't sweat enough at the border. Oh, wait. Even if they had sweat profusely and been searched prodigously, they still would've made it through. Why? Because the inspectors didn't have the right information. So rather than spending our time sweating out criminals (and innocents alike) at the border (many of whom may well sweat and be detained without humiliating questions at passport check), let's make sure that those inspectors have an accurate list of people not to let in. __________________ Current good song: Justice - Stress "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

11-26-2006, 10:50 AM	#21 (permalink)
Maus Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 326	Re: Foreign Visitors say it's tough to get a Visa to US I'm somewhat fortunate in that I'm from the UK, which is part of the Visa Waiver thingy whereby we just fill out a green form before we get to the Immigration desk at the entry point to the US (so, fill it out in the departure airport, on the plane, or at the arrival airport), and it's all good. However, before I moved to the US I was dating an American, and almost every time I visited there'd be some problem with me getting in -- whether it was because the first couple of times I had long hair and a black leather trenchcoat, or some other retarded reason they thought they needed to mess with me (connecting me to a polygraph, making me swear on the Bible* that I wouldn't look for work in the US). And while waiting in the Immigration area for my turn to explain why I was visiting my girlfriend, I saw a number of people (mostly looking arabian/indian/pakistani) getting turned away. Although getting my immigration visa to actually move to the States and not merely visiting didn't involve US immigration people messing with me, they sure made me jump through hoops with paperwork and medical exams, and pretty much every form you submit has about a $200 dollar fee, sometimes more. I'm now almost completely finished with the process (two years after moving here), and am a "conditional" permanent resident. I have another year to go then I need to apply to have the condition released, and then I have to gear up for all the citizenship nonsense if I ever want to vote. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole process, from first visa application to citizenship, takes 7-10 years. * because, of course, when I got rid of those two things I pretty much just breezed through immigration and customs, when I'd get stopped every time before. ** guess what, people, I ain't religious -- don't see how that commits me to anything. Make me sign something and it might work better. __________________ 2142: \|TG-Irr\| Silverfish BF2: \|TG-Irr\| Maus

11-26-2006, 01:34 PM	#22 (permalink)
Chewy Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oak Creek, WI Age: 24 Posts: 1,568	Re: Foreign Visitors say it's tough to get a Visa to US Don't blame the U.S. for the way immigration is handled. Blame the smacktard terrorists who ruined it for everyone... even us to a certain degree. It's not harsh, it's simply what has to be done to ensure our protection. I would hope that I couldn't just fly over to Russia and waltz right in and meet up with my terrorist homies and blowup the country. And if I could, that's scary. That's exactly what we don't want here. __________________ PM Chewy (Team Fortress 2 Admin) Chewy's Steam Profile

11-27-2006, 01:44 AM	#25 (permalink)
xTYBALTx Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,899	Re: Foreign Visitors say it's tough to get a Visa to US While I was originally talking about the absurdity of our procedures for processing incoming visitors at ports of entry (US Citizens and foreigners alike), I'll join the immigration discussion with both feet as well. Cing, while I don't want to put words into anyone's mouths, I believe that Kero might consider the low number of legal immigrants permitted to be a part of "the immigration problem." Only part, mind you. The beaurocratic nightmare is another considerable problem. Again, if this were about terrorists and criminals, we could simply check the people against 'the list.' People will use aliases and other tricks, especially the ones we don't want coming here, but I don't see how making the process more beaurocratic solves that. __________________ Current good song: Justice - Stress "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

11-27-2006, 10:31 AM	#27 (permalink)
Kittamaru Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Your BackYard Age: 20 Posts: 64	Re: Foreign Visitors say it's tough to get a Visa to US You want simple border security? Look up the Metal Storm Area of Denial Weapons System. 240,000 Rounds Per Minute, automatic target aquisition, designation, and intervention. Place a few hundred of these babies along the mexican border, add in cameras on all of them. Have a count of 1-4 down the line. Each set of guns, 1-4, is controlled by a sub station. Each gun has a camera on top that has FLIR (Foward Looking Infra-Red) and NightVision to allow for rapid target descrimination. Allow a loudspeaker to play a warning. Anyone caught trying to cross the boarder illegally (sp?)... well, let's just say they'll think twice before trying it again... As for airports- security in airports in the US is a joke. My school choir took a trip to Italy. At the Philidelphia International, departing, we were barely given a second glance. At the terminals in Europe, they x-rayed our bags, eyeballed us vs our passports, and interviewed our chaperones and our choir director while our choir was being checked in. We were out of the AirFrance checkin in under 15 minutes (that's all like, 40 of us). Departing, since we were already checked in and they remembered our group (our layover was a few hours) we didn't have to do more than a baggage scan + metal detectors. Our director was spoken to about airline safety, and that was that. In Italy it was much the same. We unboarded the plane, checked in ourselves- passports at the ready- and grabbed our bags. Because of a single piece of lost luggage (which was accidentally left in London and had to be shipped to us) we weren't out of there for almost an hour. The check in process, however, only took like, 5 minutes. Trip back was the same thru Europe. We get back to the States and finish our trip back in Philidelphia International. We unload and go to check in... and it takes us almost TWO HOURS. The line was backed up to hades and back, they checked passports, luggage, collected our "items purchased abroad" forms, hand checked most of our peoples luggage... it was ludicrious! What the hell is a HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT IN A CHOIR going to bring back that's dangerous? (Though, all told, I had a bottle of wine with me- my dad likes using wine in some of his cooking). BTW- this is without mentioning. The Philidelphia International airport has almost 50 check in terminals and at least 20 check out terminals. The AirFrance terminal has around 15 check in and 5 check out. I don't remember where we were in Italy, but it had FIVE check in and 2 check out. How is it the LARGEST airport with the MOST resorces was also the SLOWEST one we were at? So, yeah, US Airport Security is a joke... most of the guys I saw there were Rent-A-Cops who didn't give 2 shakes of a rats tail who you were. Hell, half of em weren't even AMERICAN, and some didn't even seem to speak english! Figure that one out! __________________ Damn the torpedos and full speed ahead!

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