Maus

Wait, what?

Why is a reduced population a bad thing? Enlighten me, please.

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Kerostasis

Population shrinkage isn't inherently bad. However, many of our social programs (social security, medicare, etc) are based on an economic foundation that requires a steadily increasing population base (also known as "Pyramid Scheme" or "Ponzi Scheme").

If our population stopped flat, Social Security would quickly become insolvent, but as long as we have twice as many people in each new generation paying in as we do people in the older generation taking out, it works fine. Thats why we've been hearing about how Social Security is going to run out of money for decades now, but the date it runs out of money keeps being postponed--because we keep getting more and more people to pay into it.

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Maus

So the answer is money. I feel better already . . .

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CingularDuality

Now you seem to think that border security is just about international terrorists? That a watch list is all we need? My friend, a list is not Border Security. And there are lots of lists that can be checked, but they're only as accurate as the data contained in them. And every single one of them relies on the fact that the people on them have done something bad first. Do you think that it's impossible for smugglers or terrorists to begin training/recruiting people with no prior history?

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

xTYBALTx

What's your point?

Mine is that our current border security regime is overly intrusive and inefficient. To the point of absurdity.

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CingularDuality

Hmmm, I think that our border security is excellent, but it just needs more resources on the Southern and Northern borders.

Airport security, on the other hand, is a joke.

It's important to note this distinction.

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TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

xTYBALTx

Yes, I meant to say point of entry regime, not border security. My bad. :]

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Kerostasis

Hey, I'm not saying I like the system. Its just good to understand your enemy.

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xTYBALTx

I think it goes beyond just social security and other, similar government programs. Most businesses borrow money on the assumption that sales will increase over time not only via innovation, marketing, and salesmanship but also through a gradually increasing population.

A .5% annual increase in sales via population growth goes a long ways towards paying off long-term debt. I think that both lenders (banks) and borrowers (business) take this into account, even if unintentionally, when planning out future lending and borrowing. A decreasing or even stable population could impact this.

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El_Gringo_Grande

Tsk Tsk So negative.

And I am not talking about flattening, but of declining. Flat is bad. Decline is much worse. The infrastructure would suffer as well. And simply to maintain what we have (military spending included) would require increasing taxes on companies since the income tax would probably decrease. The only way it wouldn't decrease would be if average income increased enough to offset the lost earners. That could very well lead to inflation.

Many things desire a growing population. American business is another. Productivity gains do offset the need for a huge population gains as was needed during other periods but if the economy is growing then new workers will be needed.

I guess we could just offshore many of them, but offshoring has limits.

Plus a growing population, especially through immigration, keeps things zesty. Makes the old school white Protestants on their toes and helps them realize what is important. Many of our greatest scientists have come from other countries as well. Now our scientists are going abroad.

And the shrinking population in Europe is not only bad for their social programs. Many of them use guest worker type programs to fulfill the labor needs. They do this to maintain "purity" of their culture. Looks how good that is working out.

No, decreasing population is bad no matter how you look at it. Unless you are China or India.

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Steeler

If you are the type of person who worries about the health of our nation in terms of the movement of little green pieces of paper, keep in mind that when you begin to restrict legitimate travel, you encourage legitimate travelers to avoid your country. That includes businessmen, investors, importers, research, etc. While the EU has been opening up it's borders even in the face of increased terrorism, we have been closing our borders in paranoid fear of it, to little preventative effect.

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Switchcraft

So how's that European economy working?

And last I checked, for multiple years in a row France has had riots by young muslims lasting weeks, over how poorly they and other immigrant populations have been treated, and an unemployment rate that frankly boggles my mind.

Immigration has caused a panoply of security and economic problems for most of the EU. Steeler, I think you're channeling The Princess Bride. I don't think that meant what you thought it meant.

Our economy has grown considerably since these restrictions were put in place. Do I agree that they can be costly? Yes. The idea that it's done little? Not so believable.

Steeler

I was talking about travel visas, not immigration. EU immigration issues and the inability of some Americans to comprehend or even care about the actual issues facing France or any other country in this realm has been covered in other threads many times.

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Switchcraft

Okay, so have travel visas helped out the European economy? Or were you just trying to say that the increased security problems they've had during that time weren't bad enough to justify the cost of preventing them?

Kerostasis

To the best of my knowledge, the EU is doing lots of things to open their internal borders. That is, travelers from one EU nation can easily move throughout other EU nations. But if you aren't from an EU nation at all, then you still have just as hard a time getting in as ever.

Which makes sense, as the "immigration issues" that are causing the EU trouble are primarily driven by immigrants from non-EU countries, not immigrants moving from one EU country to another. So they can improve their economy by basically increasing the size of their economy to all of Europe, but still maintain some control over outside immigrants.

How much control is something I'm totally not familiar with.

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