Has anyone ever changed their opinion or admitted to being wrong in this forum?

[El_Gringo_Grande]

I think a better rep system would help the sandbox. It could help with the loss of tone and inflection you speak of.

Having the multiple categories on a scale that would be applied to both the thread and the poster may encourage some to enter the better discussions and discourage, over time, some of the personal attacks that occur.

I often worry if I am going to offend people and never really know if I do. And I have no doubt that I have even when I did not intend to. Humans learn by making mistakes. Little mistakes are the best way to learn because little harm was done. Unfortunately it is only the large mistakes that have any chance of getting called out due to the all or nothing aspect of the current rep system.

And I also feel I have no way to subtlety let others know that "I" think they, or the thread as a whole, are approaching the line.

If nothing else it would be a great experiment.

[DudeMan]

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

I disagree. And this is where it gets tricky. It's evident to me that you consider the use of sarcasm to be extremely disrespectful. I do not. I find sarcasm to be a wonderfully expressive form of communicating in certain situations. Phyllis and I are the only mods for this forum. I've asked others to help me moderate and they've declined. Without another active moderator, you're stuck with my biases when it comes to moderation of this forum. And I'm much more likely to let the community police itself than to edit, delete, or lock posts based on my personal views. I'll always err on the side of caution in that regard. You seem to feel the opposite, that it's better to lock/edit/delete threads before there's even a chance of them getting out of hand. Perhaps we need a happy medium, but I'm not seeing any major problems with the way things are going now. I look at this community and this forum like I look at a family. Brothers and sisters fight. They scrap. Then they get over it and stand next to each other. Brotherhood and respect is much more than just watching what you say to each other...

What a rambling paragraph that was...

Bottom line is that I don't see the disrespect that you keep mentioning. I actually see exactly the opposite. I'm constantly amazed at the level of discussion that we have in here. Quit concentrating on the little spats between brothers and look at the big picture.

amen, and its not often i agree 100% with Cing so there is another turn up for the sandbox... lmao.

thats what i was trying to say in my 2nd from last post.

[Panz]

I have been gaming for oh....roughly....15 years (yeah I know Im showing my age here). In all that time, my most enjoyable time online has been with the fine people here. Now, and before the split I looked forward to my time online because I knew that I would be spending it with like-minded mature gamers with whom I could have an actual adult conversation or even a debate with and not once would I be called "gay" "geh" "fag" "noob" "nub" I didnt have to worry about threats about being "haxored" I didnt have to decifer words like "l33t" "p0wn3d", "gr8" or any other kiddie internet slang and noone ever talks poorly or threatens my mother. Did our maturity levels slide downwards from time to time? lol, well sure, but its all harmless fun and its never in an attempt to be malicious or hurtful, we are all aware that its in fun, unlike some other sites when people just honestly try to be mean.

I have never found anywhere else where there is so much loyalty and honest to goodness friendship. I have given out my address and phone number to members here and have received the same in return. I dont worry about stalkers or prank phone calls in the middle of the night and I have talked to many of the wives of the gamers here and my boyfriend, like your wives feel secure in knowing that this is more like a family than anything on the internet and that noone is here looking to get "lucky" online like so many other places.

I think that the Sandbox represents exactly what it should on this rare and wonderful site. Freedom of speech in its best form. Along with that freedom of speech here at TG is the freedom to express ourselves and opinins with the knowledge that there might be someone out there that disagrees with us and that they will post their thoughts in return. This is almost always done in adebate fashion and the few instances when it went beyond that its usually ended in an apology.

I dont think that there should ever be limitations put on the sandbox, no additional rules or moderation or rep points. I think that the current system works very well for TG and it works as well as it does because of the kinds of people that are here....all good people with good hearts and even better minds. We all know whats right and wrong and for the most part, we stay within those boundries.

Just my two cents.......well ok, maybe its more like a dollar and 75 cents ;

[Rincewind]

Originally Posted by Apophis

Good comments. I've thought and thought about the Sandbox and what should be done with it. It CAN be an embarrasment, but at the same time it can also be a great asset. Seriously strict moderation could help, but I think that would just be more of a pain in the arse.

I'm visit another web site that actually has Debate and Discourse forum. The general idea is that topics are presented by forum participants (following a suggested format) and the topic is discussed. Posts are required to stay on topic and tangential issues are brought up in other threads that point back to the post in the main thread that started the tangent.

Every couple of months a few topics are chosen from a variety of genres (politics, ethics, technology, comics, games, movies, etc.) and three to four person teams are formed up (by volunteering or by 'Soviet election') to argue a side of the topic. The teams get a couple of days to research and then a formal debate takes place. Various rules outline the format (time limits, who posts for the team, etc.) and after the last allowed response and closing argument a few names are drawn from a pool of non participants to post their critiques and opinions of the discourse. After the critiques are posted, the thread is closed and a new thread for informal discussion is opened for a couple of days.

It sounds kind of stuffy in description but it really is a lot of fun to read and participate in the forum. I've seen discussions on the best way to manicure your lawn to tactics in Halo 2. Some of the most eye opening and fun threads are the ones where the teams are required to argue the side of the topic that they didn't choose (gotta love the heavy-handed moderators ).

I think a Debate and Discourse forum is a format that would compliment the chaos and eclectic nature of the Sandbox. It would be a more formal venue to actually discuss topics. TG certainly has the community to support it and I'm sure a white paper could be thrown together if there is enough interest in this format.

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by Diceman

There are other resources on the web which are designed to harmonize facts and opinion into a coherent whole, which is sensitive to the intelligence and understanding of its contributors. Wikipedia and Standpedia are both examples of this. I'd love to see these kinds of tools and techniques become more blended into the forum interface.

With all due respect to those who may contribute to them, Wikipedia and Standpedia are, IMO, terrible templates for a public forum. The emphasis on format restriction, post review, and the proliferation of commenters masquerading as moderaters stifles a lot of open debate, even honest, informed debate. It becomes so focused on the meta-commentary that actual knowledge and analysis drown in a sea of accusatory amatuer copy editing. For all it's flaws, the current Sandbox format is a much better read (again, IMO).

[Diceman]

Originally Posted by Steeler

With all due respect to those who may contribute to them, Wikipedia and Standpedia are, IMO, terrible templates for a public forum. The emphasis on format restriction, post review, and the proliferation of commenters masquerading as moderaters stifles a lot of open debate, even honest, informed debate. It becomes so focused on the meta-commentary that actual knowledge and analysis drown in a sea of accusatory amatuer copy editing. For all it's flaws, the current Sandbox format is a much better read (again, IMO).

The criticisms are fair enough.

I would elaborate on my previous post by noting that these alternative formats would derive their maximum utility when used to complement the more traditional forum format. To replace one format with its inherent drawbacks for another format with a new set of drawbacks isn't so much improving things as making the problems to be solved somewhat of a moving target.

Perhaps the alternative formats would be most useful not as actual plugins, integrated into the TG system, but as seeds for brainstorming new ways of representing debate and discourse; to illustrate in a very concrete way that there are multiple ways of treating the inputs of contributors and linking arguments together.

[Steeler]

That brings up another question - is the purpose of the Sandbox to form a cogent community consensus, to assist people in forming an opinion/thesis, to foster independent commentary on a given topic, or to provide a place to bitch at each other?

[Diceman]

It is certainly a necessary activity to give some thought to the definition or purpose of a thing before one attempts to build or modify it. The Sandbox is, by its name and nature, an open ended sort of thing; meaning it will probably resist any kind of attempt to railroad its form into something that achieves the one of suggested goals at the expense of the others. Along this line, I think that the Sandbox serves each of these goals already, although to varying degrees over time.

In its current format however, I can't help but feel that only the last purpose is really enabled, while the others are given little more than lip service.

[DudeMan]

Originally Posted by Panz

I have been gaming for oh....roughly....15 years (yeah I know Im showing my age here). In all that time, my most enjoyable time online has been with the fine people here. Now, and before the split I looked forward to my time online because I knew that I would be spending it with like-minded mature gamers with whom I could have an actual adult conversation or even a debate with and not once would I be called "gay" "geh" "fag" "noob" "nub" I didnt have to worry about threats about being "haxored" I didnt have to decifer words like "l33t" "p0wn3d", "gr8" or any other kiddie internet slang and noone ever talks poorly or threatens my mother. Did our maturity levels slide downwards from time to time? lol, well sure, but its all harmless fun and its never in an attempt to be malicious or hurtful, we are all aware that its in fun, unlike some other sites when people just honestly try to be mean.

I have never found anywhere else where there is so much loyalty and honest to goodness friendship. I have given out my address and phone number to members here and have received the same in return. I dont worry about stalkers or prank phone calls in the middle of the night and I have talked to many of the wives of the gamers here and my boyfriend, like your wives feel secure in knowing that this is more like a family than anything on the internet and that noone is here looking to get "lucky" online like so many other places.

I think that the Sandbox represents exactly what it should on this rare and wonderful site. Freedom of speech in its best form. Along with that freedom of speech here at TG is the freedom to express ourselves and opinins with the knowledge that there might be someone out there that disagrees with us and that they will post their thoughts in return. This is almost always done in adebate fashion and the few instances when it went beyond that its usually ended in an apology.

I dont think that there should ever be limitations put on the sandbox, no additional rules or moderation or rep points. I think that the current system works very well for TG and it works as well as it does because of the kinds of people that are here....all good people with good hearts and even better minds. We all know whats right and wrong and for the most part, we stay within those boundries.

Just my two cents.......well ok, maybe its more like a dollar and 75 cents ;

agreed, very nicely put Panz, and i absolutely urge everyone to think back (if you were around that long), to the Happy Bunny Corner, and look at the sandbox's progression from there. the sandbox is a credit to the evolution of the political forum on TG, yes it gets heated but it still towers head and shoulders over anything else on the web.

[luna]

I distinctly remember a thread back in the day that discussed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict where H-hour sincerely convinced me to reconsider my perspective, and fed me TONS of information to help me to understand the situation more thoroughly. I've since formed an educated opinion on the crisis, and can honestly say my initial reaction was totally off base.

[Zephyr]

First I want to say this:
This forum can only be seen as a disgrace in comparison to other TG forums.

Secondly:
I frequent Slashdot.org and consider the way their comment community functions to emphasize what is possibly the highest caliber of internet discussion. However just looking at how they do things, via mod points that bury the stupid responses and highlight the true shining examples of the crowd, is a very laborious task that requires a dedicated staff of admins but results with very interesting, informative, funny, or insightful responses being pushed to the forefront.

For the most part, I would say 75% of the responses posted in our sandbox are leaps and bounds ahead of what you would find anywhere else on the internet. 75% is a huge margin, and while completely my opinion and unprovable, would put us above sites like slashdot when it comes to the proportion of respectable responses.

Overall, I don't think we need to implement any new restrictions on this forum, but a few new admins would be nice.

Take a moment to realize what this Sandbox has: some of the most interesting content and high quality responses you can hope to find anywhere on the internet. Stop worrying about it being completely perfect, watch biased opinions become educated ones, and you'll realize how beautiful this Sandbox already is.

The Sandbox is TG's beauty mark, not it's black eye.

Oh and Godwin's Law has never come true here. That's something to be damned proud of.

-Zephyr

[Pokerface]

My views on gun control have relaxed dramatically since wading in here. I'm still for stricter control than most here would probably like, but I'm not nearly the nut I was five years ago, largely thanks to the informed opinions around here.

[DudeMan]

Originally Posted by Pokerface

My views on gun control have relaxed dramatically since wading in here. I'm still for stricter control than most here would probably like, but I'm not nearly the nut I was five years ago, largely thanks to the informed opinions around here.

i think i would agree the same for myself, although i will still advocate more gun control, i have had some very good discussions with people on the issue and respect that now more thani ever have... minor miracle really because i have always been really strict on the private sale of weapons...

[Santa]

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

I think a better rep system would help the sandbox. It could help with the loss of tone and inflection you speak of.

Having the multiple categories on a scale that would be applied to both the thread and the poster may encourage some to enter the better discussions and discourage, over time, some of the personal attacks that occur.

I often worry if I am going to offend people and never really know if I do. And I have no doubt that I have even when I did not intend to. Humans learn by making mistakes. Little mistakes are the best way to learn because little harm was done. Unfortunately it is only the large mistakes that have any chance of getting called out due to the all or nothing aspect of the current rep system.

And I also feel I have no way to subtlety let others know that "I" think they, or the thread as a whole, are approaching the line.

If nothing else it would be a great experiment.

This is a good idea. I know whenever I see a personal attack or sarcasm taken too far, i click the reputation button, click negative, and write out my response. I then backspace everything because i don't want to open a can of worms. I haven't given many neg reps, but of those i have given, I cannot remember a single time that i gave justifiable negative reputation without the person PMing me about it. Ironically, doing this just makes the neg rep all the more justified

I think im gonna start giving more negative reputation. I think the fact that it may make people think twice before personally attacking someone would be worth the fact that some people, no matter their importance or stature at TG, may dislike me.

[thebleakaffinity]

Can we make the negative rep option anonymous, so people feel more willing to use it?